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Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 07:24:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I have to agree with John G. The Macgregors, even if not dangerous, are at least going to turn a lot of people away from sailing. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If you use the USCG stats. us sailors are only 3% of the boating public, that is with the non motorized sailboats 1% added in. If anybody that buys a Mac is not sure which way they want to go, and are just testing which they like better and even a few realize they like sailing better than motor we win. At a wopping 3% of the boating public we can use all the converts we can get.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> even though some may not appreciate the design, the owners of these boats probably do. I'm sure owners of Island Packets, Swans, Hylas', and even Cape Dory's probably have opinions regarding our Catalina's that may not be favorable either.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I visit the CCDA site as often as I visit this site and I really don't recall any discussion where other boats are trashed. Can't say the same for the Seward forum!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Not quite a chlorox bottle - but close!
Derek

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Hey hasn't that phrase been used on this forum to describe my boat?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628 Sea Major

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 02/06/2003 07:25:15
Here ya go Mark!
http://www.toolworks.com/capedory/bboard/
http://www.trailersailor.com/forums/seaward/index.cgi

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 02/06/2003 12:03:47

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 02/06/2003 12:04:30

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 10:07:28

Ray,
Would you please post links to the CCD and Seward forums?
Thanks

<img src="http://www.chaplin-nest.com/unkarock/usflagwav.gif" border=0>
Mark-
'Impulse'
C25 #533 DINN/FIN ~_/)~
Bakersfield, CA.

Edited by - Mark Maxwell on 02/06/2003 10:08:00

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 14:21:42

Weighing in on this discussion, I must say the new MacGregor looks pretty snazzy, but like all recent Mac's, somewhat insubstantial in my opinion. I admit, my wife and I looked at a Mac at the Spring (I think) boat show in Raleigh around five years ago. This was the first boat we had ever looked at, and we loved it. It had wheel steering, which my wife loved, an enclosed head, all sorts of cool things. It was shiny and new, and only $15k. We left there saying that was going to be our first sailboat. Thank GOD we didn't buy it. Having looked at other sailboats in the meantime, the Mac's seemed to be more sizzle than substance. My wife now calls Macs the Bayliners of the sailboat world. I'm not familiar with Bayliners, but my wife is not fond of them for some reason. Generally I don't critisize other people's boats, because I feel it's like critisizing someone's religion. When people ask my opinion about what boats to consider, I let them know what I think.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 21:04:31

Just for fun:

Pacific Seacraft= Mercedes
Bavarian= BMW
Beneteau= Pugeot
Oyster or Hinckley= Rolls
Catalina= Volkswagen
J boats= Porsche
Dana= MGA
MacGregor= ? (the Yugo comes to mind...)

Doug - #1913 Noeta

Edited by - on

Carl B.
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 21:40:06

Doug,

Where are the Cheys and Fords the AMERICAN made stuff?? oh ya can furget Dodge/Chrysler

"OBLIVIOUS" C25 '82 #3098 SR/FK/Trad

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 22:36:01

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Pacific Seacraft= Mercedes
Bavarian= BMW
Beneteau= Pugeot
Oyster or Hinckley= Rolls
Catalina= Volkswagen
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

How does Beneteau rate so high?<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> IMHO interior décor maybe sailing performance I don’t think so.

I would take a Catalina C310 over the Beneteau 311 any day!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Just more fun <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Catalina= Cadillac
Beneteau= Volkswagen

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 23:31:51

My first sailboat was an '84 Mac 25, which I took to several Northern California sailing areas in the three years I had it: San Francisco Bay, Sacramento River Delta, Clearlake, Lake Tahoe, and Folsom Lake. Looking back on it, I abused that poor boat a couple of times, and scared my wife half to death, in gusty conditions on the Bay with too much sail up and not enough experience or common sense to take down the main and head in under jib only. The main had no reefing points, so it had to be either fully up or fully down. Anyway, despite all the badmouthing directed at the trailerable MacGregors, nothing on my boat ever broke, despite my best (unintentional) efforts to overpower it with full main and a 150% genoa in 20+ kts of wind. It did have some weak points, especially the kick-up rudder. I knew a couple of Mac 25 and Venture owners who had those aluminum channel rudder posts get twisted into scrap metal in rough conditions on the Bay, especially during a hard round-up. The rudder post didn't have enough torsional rigidity to stand up to repeated maximum-effort pulls on the tiller in rough conditions (the Mac 25 had a lot of weather helm, but so does my Catalina 25 in certain conditions). There is no denying the hull laminates are pretty light - I could feel the foredeck flex under my 290 pounds when I walked on it - but on the other hand, the boat could be trailered and launched with a light-duty vehicle. And dang it, it was fun to sail! It moved nicely in moderate breezes, and it was affordable, a third of the price of a same-year Catalina 25 at the time. I replaced it with an '86 Catalina 22, which I kept for 2 years, then swapped that boat for "Quiet Time". My Cat 22 was a sweet little boat, but just too small. I couldn't stand up straight in the cabin even with the pop-top up, and that finally got too aggravating. "Quiet Time" has been a great boat, but she too is for sale. I hope to find her a new family this spring, then start the hunt for my '88-'90 WK/SR. Hopefully something similar to the boat Frank Gloss found, but without the hull blisters. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

I have never been sailing on a Mac 26x, although I have crawled around them at boat shows. For the asking price of $15550, you get quite a lot of boat, IMHO. Look at what you can get in a powerboat for that price: a bare-bones aluminum fishing boat, maybe. The smallest Bayliner 17 runabout costs considerably more, and the Mac has a cabin that can sleep 4 people for a weekend outing. One thing I have noticed favorably is that the newer Mac 26x doesn't seem as flimsy as the '84 that I had. It's dry displacement is about the same, 2250#, yet since it doesn't have a 750# iron keel, there is presumeably thicker, stronger laminates used that represent the weight of that missing ballast keel. And you can still tow it with a light-duty vehicle. The Catalina 250 WB and the Hunter 26 WB both weigh (I think), about 4200# on the trailer, compared to 3200# for a Mac 26x. That extra thousand pounds puts the heavier boats beyond the safe towing range of a light-duty pickup or van.

Would I buy one? No, because I don't care for the "looks" of the Mac 26x, I prefer tiller steering on small sail boats, and the dual-rudder system seems overly complex and therefore trouble-prone. Would I buy a Catalina 250? I've looked at them, and I don't care for the interior layout. The head is where the galley should be, the V-berth has no privacy, the big under-cockpit bed is too hard for people with bad backs (me and the Admiral both) to crawl in and out of, and the lack of a "real" pop-top makes the 250 almost as "short" inside as my Catalina 22 was. All things considered, I still think the '88-'90 Catalina 25 WK is the ultimate trailerable sailboat, at least in it's price range. There are other fancier boats, the Pacific Seacraft Dana 24 for example, but they cost 4 or 5 times as much for a comparable one. The only downside to the Catalina 25 WK is the 8000# towing weight. If you don't already own a 3/4 ton or 1-ton pickup, you have to to buy one, a considerable extra expense. I love my '98 Dodge Cummins 3/4 ton, but would not have had to purchase it, had it not been for "Quiet Time" joining our family in '96.

Do you suppose Frank Butler still has the molds for the '90 Catalina 25 WK still tucked away somewhere? Maybe if enough of us beg and cajole, he'll build a few more for us!

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

Paul Boudreau
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 16:18:35

I hate to ruffle feathers here but my goodness. Some of you folks seem so hateful towards the newer Macs. I am a Mac owner. Prior to owning the Mac 26x, my only sailing experience came on Hobie's in San Francisco and Perth Australia. I'm no sailing expert, but I have fallen in love with sailing and my Mac 26x. I orginally bought it with only an 18hp. I recently upgraded to a Merc 50. I hardly use the engine. I live in the Dallas area and mainly sail on Lake Ray Hubbard, the winds are primarily out of the south during the summer months. It is nice to fire up the 50 and plow to the southern shore and the reach back to the marina. I was also lucky to have the 50 down at South Padre Island during a heavy storm. I got in to the relative safety of the marina minutes before disaster could have struck.I think we all have different reasons for sailing what we sail. I have dreams of someday living on the coast and owning a 35+ foot sailboat. For now, I'm very happy with my little clorox bottle.

On a side note. Last year I trailered Horace (named after my Grandfather) to Lake Broken Bow in SE Oklahoma. I met a very nice couple who owned a Catalina 250 with water ballast. It was a beautiful boat. They had previously owner a Mac 26x. Well, long story short, no matter how hard we tried, we could not get his boat off the trailer. The ramp was too shallow. I was worried that I'd have the same problem, but Horace slipped right off. I did see them the next day in the water. They managed to find a deeper ramp after driving all over the place.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 16:43:28

So how much is one of these things?

I recently talked one of my co-workers out of buying a Mac, then he wanted to buy a hunter 26 water ballast. He took a week long offshore cruising class, came back and said he doesn't want a water ballast. Now he wants a Catalina 27 and get a trailer. I don't have the heart to tell him that may be a bit much to trailer, especially a beginner. He will come over to my house soon to check out my 25 wing which is on a trailer, and then maybe he'll get a feel for what he may be getting into.

Also, I have always heard of Catalinas as Ford or Chevys. Seeing how well built my new Chevy pickup is, that's not too bad.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 20:59:43

I had the opportunity to look at a Mac 26 at a boat show a few years ago. One of the reasons the Mac is so light is that the lay-up is thin. (read cheap) As I sat in the cabin listening to the dealer rattle off the virtues of the boat,(I was allready a catalina owner at the time) I watched the shadows of people walking by projected against the hull. very thin paper like. My problem with such a boat is that it gives the appearance to a novice, of a heavy seaworthy craft. Having a light hull and internal water balast transfers the righting moment inside the center of gravity when the boat is laid on her side. in that scenario the boat will never self right but will continue to turtle. That might be ok on an inland lake where help is nearby, but on san francisco bay or the upper great lakes where the water is frigid even in the summer an inexperienced sailor would be in a life and death situation quickly. Having sailed many boats in a variety of conditions for better than forty years I am still very cautious and very careful about equipment. A cheap price may be attractive but is it worth risking your life. I was on the North Channel two years ago during a storm in which two sailors lost their lives on nearby lake Huron. (we were safely harbored)

John V. Nin Bimash II
77 C25 sk/sr #153 (soon to be a wing)

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 21:44:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
. . . I am still very cautious and very careful about equipment. A cheap price may be attractive but . . .
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Again, as my Dad use to say "it's better to be shocked once than shocked twice . . . "

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 02:27:50

The Mac 26-X (sans engine) is only $15,500 as of the last time I saw one at a boat show. If you don't need high speed capability, add an 8 hp outboard for about $2000 more, and you are still under $20K. If Frank Butler was still making the final model Catalina 25 WK (the '88-'90 we all lust after), what do you suppose he would have to charge for it? I have been told that the last few '90's that were delivered were almost $40,000, and that was 13 years ago! With inflation, they would probably cost close to $50,000 today. MacGregor's trailerable sailboats have always been designed and built to be sold to people who want a sailboat but can't afford a "yacht". Yes, due to the lightweight construction, you have to be somewhat careful with them in rough conditions, and they won't hold as much resale value after 10 years as a Catalina 250 or Hunter26, but because of the retail price niche they occupy, thousands of people have been able to buy them and discover sailing that might not have otherwise. How many current owners of more expensive sailboats have owned a "Mac" at some point, probably when they were young and just starting a family? I bet more than you could shake a tiller at! It's a starter boat, and while it probably would not win a race against a Catalina 250WK, it has a lot to offer, especially compared to the first generation MacGragors of the 1970's.
I would actually be interested in a ride in one sometime, just to see how different the sailing characteristics are from my Catalina 25. I suspect that with the light weight, it probably "bounces" in choppy water, like my Catalina 22 did, rather than plough through small waves, and the flat bottom and small centerboard probably limits the upwind performance somewhat. But I suspect that if the rig were tuned properly, and if the sails are at least reasonably well designed and manufactured, the boat is probably not too awful to sail. Just another dose of my 2 cents worth.

Last word: One of the nicest things about my sailing club, Catalina 22 Fleet 4, is that no one cares what kind of sailboat you have, and we have everything from a Hunter 42 that probably cost $180,000, to 30-year-old Catalina 22's that are probably worth less than $3500. We have at least one Mac 26-C in the club at the moment, and have had members with boats as small as a Montgomery 17. There is no social distinction whatsoever. We all have a great time at our meetings and cruises, and they are all the nicest bunch of folks you could ever hope to meet at a raft-up some evening. Enough ranting. I should know by the middle of next week if I will be able to sub-let a slip for "Quiet Time" at Folsom Lake this summer, or not. If not, I guess I will give Owl Harbor a try for at least the summer months. Hope y'all have a great weekend!

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 02:59:58

It is amazing how some of these topics just keep popping back up. I thought this topic was put to bed a couple of months ago.

The dealer here in Colorado is sure bragging about the MacGregor 26m
(Millennium Edition. Their web site calls it their featured boat.

The 2003 MacGregor 26M Has Arrived 
Your Sailing Source in The Heart of The Rockies

See our featured yacht: 2003 MacGregor 26M

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 20:29:31

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Just for fun:

Pacific Seacraft= Mercedes
Bavarian= BMW
Beneteau= Pugeot
Oyster or Hinckley= Rolls
Catalina= Volkswagen
J boats= Porsche
Dana= MGA
MacGregor= ? (the Yugo comes to mind...)

Doug - #1913 Noeta
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Doug,

Think I would tend to agree with the Catalina/VW association. I own a 1967 Bettle (which my dad bought new in '67) and a 2002 Beetle. As with my C250, both cars are overly well built, reliable, a little small on the inside and a lot of fun to drive!

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

Edited by - bren737 on 03/22/2003 20:30:50

Edited by - on

tom
1st Mate

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USA
52 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2003 : 10:35:24

IT SUCKS. THE UGLIEST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN. IT LOOKS LIKE A
BOAT A PIMP WOULD OWN.

Edited by - on

JustFine
Deckhand

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USA
1 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 12:12:50

Hmmmm. You all are scaring me. We are just about to have our 26M delivered. We decided in the 26M because of the draft and the ability to move quickly. We live on an island where the water is very, very skinny (frequently less than two feet), weather moves in at the blink of an eye and dinning out by boat is the travel method of choice. Therefore, we felt the 26M fit our needs. I am not looking forward to being harrased because of my choice. Is this what I have to look forward to?

<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 12:27:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Hmmmm. You all are scaring me. We are just about to have our 26M delivered...I am not looking forward to being harrased because of my choice. Is this what I have to look forward to?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You have to remember that this forum is on the C25/C250 National Association website so there is going to be a little bias towards Catalina's and a prejudice towards all others(kind of like Chevy or Ford owners arguing over which brand is best). Just be happy with your purchase and enjoy being out on the water.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Rubin Hawkins
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 12:59:03

I just purchased a 2002 C250WB after extensive research on which boat would best meet my needs. The first boat to catch my eye was the 26X. I didn't get a chance to see the new model but I did see pictures and specs. My choice was heavily weighted based on this forum and the people who own Catalina sailboats. Sailors own Catalinas.

Rubin
Windy Joy
C250 WB #591

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2003 : 22:30:52

Good choice, Rubin!

Justin: Please don't take us too seriously... Everybody has to have somebody to look down on, and Catalina sailors can't look down on too many others... We secretly (or not so secretly) aspire to Tartans, Sabres, Cape Dorys, Pacific Seacrafts, Pearsons, Hinckleys, Island Packets, and on and on... About all that's left in comparable sizes are Hunters and Macs, both of which are more contemporary (less traditional) and somewhat lower in price. If the charactteristics of the 26M are right for you, you have the right boat! Despite what we snicker about, Venture/Mac has sold a trillion or so boats, most of which are probably still sailing. (The Venture 21 is actually a pretty hot number on the racecourse.)

Peace!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

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