Association Forum - I guess I am the only one racing this season?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Racing Forum

I guess I am the only one racing this season?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Member Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/08/2013 : 07:11:41

Ok... so forecast last Sunday was for 6-13mph winds from the south.
The actual NOAA hour by hour graph had us at 6mph until noon, then up to 13mph by 1pm.

When I arrived at the lake at 9am... winds were obviously more. 10-12 perhaps? Sorry folks I am VERY OLD SCHOOL, no anemometer on my boat! I use Beaufort scale to determine wind speed. Wind direction was from the west and crawling slowly northward.

My crew arrived at 10:30am, and we headed out... Winds were now easily 15mph, and we were getting cats paws in gusts dragging across the lake from W-NW, they are easy to spot on our little lake because in that direction they create obvious streaks of shadows.

We debated putting up my blown out, leechless 130 for a headsail and full main (bad if we did, it's got no power or shape and luffs continuously)... I told my crew that I didn't want to luff (to depower) my 155 loadpath (because it cost half of my daily driving car to purchase)... So we agreed with the winds that a reef in the main and my full up 155 practice dacron would work (it's 30 years old but has seen little use, so it has decent shape and isn't complete trashed - yet). So we spent about 45 minutes tooling around at 6 knots using it in that configuration... when winds started to die as the first fleets started.

12 minutes before our start, I decided that reef had to go! Now I have NO IDEA why it took me so long, or how I lost track of time, but we were back headed from the wrong side of the start line several hundred feet beyond it, at the 1 minute warning. AS luck would have it, we were still OVER, when the horn went off... so we had to sail AROUND the fleet and start in the back. UGH, SKIPPER ERROR.

It's OK though, I got great video (if I ever process it) of us buzzing the committee boat at the start (ducking to keep from sailing over their anchor line) HEHEHE.

The course was simple, start, sail up the lake a couple hundred feet, round the first mark, and down the lake to another mark, then 2 laps around those same 2 marks. The Wind direction put us on a Close Haul to Close Reach down, depending on the oscillations.. which meant Beam Reach to Broad back (not quite sym spinnaker wind direction).

The S2 out front got a great start, and walked away from the fleet early taking the B25 with him. At the windward mark the pack huddled up a bit as the winds were slightly lighter (maybe 12mph)... We never dropped below 6 knots getting down the lake to it, and managed to get within 5 boat lengths of 4th and 5th boats in our fleet.

We sail staggered starts so the slowest boats start first then 10 minutes later, the slightly faster boats, then 10 minutes after that the race boats (everyone in our fleet is within 4 points in Portsmouth rating).

IN the heat of this for the first time I ever saw one on the lake, a Corsair decided he was going to sail (mainsail alone) with the fleet (and did the course - sort of - with us) but of course lapping everyone in the process.

Anyway at the first rounding we were gaining ground on the leaders. Now we were determined and with beam to broad reach back.... my crewmate and I moved forward some ahead of the traveler to get the stern out of the water (in winds now probably 15+) Knotmeter read 7.25, GPS was reading 6.8-7, so definitely ABOVE hull speed (if the angle of the wind was consistent we would have thrown spin, and there would have been NO DOUBT about surfing).

Slowly we gained on the J/22 and eventually on the last leg passed them for a bit. They managed to wrangle past us again when I sailed us into a hole, and also another J/24 was sparring with us at the time. Since we were broad at times I tried to gain ground by stealing wind ducking behind them and to windward (it didn't slow them much). Eventually both J/24s had passed us, but only by a few boat lengths at the time, and the J/22 only kept gaining a couple seconds every minute on us... So it was loss control at that point.

Ultimately we caught up with some of the 2nd fleet, that were doing REALLY well, but we were not doing as well as them. We all passed them of course, but they held on and were only a few minutes behind. I swear a Catalina 22 in their fleet was sailing with ALL WIND SPILLED, and still doing 5+ knots... Go figure (he placed 3rd overall).

We finished about minute 30 seconds behind the J/22, 2 minutes behind one J/24, and 30 seconds behind another. We corrected over all of them. We were second in our fleet, with an excellent sailor with an S2 who just made us ALL look like hacks winning the fleet and the race (as per usual). Regardless I have tremendous respect for my fellow club racers, and they made us work for our spot (I distinctly recall having my crew double check my trim on everything, and I hit several spots where it was like - "that's it, I've done ALL I can do now, boat won't go ANY faster with what I have.")

I did see the J/22, and both 24s, throw their spinnakers in 20+ that we got at the VERY end (white caps now clearly showing)... It was ugly as the winds were pushing towards beam, and nearly all of them dumped and dipped deep to keep on their feet sailing the longer path to the finish because of it. We opted to NOT get killed (as it was just the 2 of us, and launching a symmetric with 2 people in 20mph can get ugly when it's abeam).

It was a spectacular race to sail in because unlike normal summer weather we had wind! If only ALL the races were like that.

NOW THE HARD PART OF THIS BORING FOR YOU POST... Question: I've got no real usable Number 2 sail. This weather was borderline number 2 because we were light on crew (400-450lbs total crew weight). Even on a good day we only have 3, and we'd be lucky to be at 550 with that. I originally opted for 155 (and I should have used my good load path sail as we never flogged the 155, only dumped the main), but the QUESTION is: Would it be better to run 155 and reef main so you power through the puffs (and loose some speed in the lulls) or is it better to run as much sail as you can, and twist off, and dump traveler to keep it on its feet.

As it stands I was playing the backstay, on hard as the puffs came up, ease with the lulls, and was still dumping the traveler (all the way down in some puffs, so no wind in the main)... to keep it sailing. I think we only rounded up once and that was after we finished, and I was too busy guzzling a beverage to dump the traveler fast enough. We bladed out the main good with outhaul on hard, and at one point we even dropped the genoa cars back to twist it off some (no luffing but enough to allow some twist off).

Did I miss anything?
When we are only running JAM, my genoa trimmer is glued to the doghouse positioned to view all the tails, he usually works with my other crew to keep the trim right. I get to steer, and watch mainsail tales to keep them flowing (with just a slight stall on the top one). AS we get nothing but oscillating winds on our lake, I play the traveler in the puffs. Dropping as we get hit, and dragging it back up as it eases. We had vang snug, but not on hard,was wondering if on hard would have been better.

Helm control was good for most of the race... a couple puffs we dumped the traveler and I was easily +5 degrees on the tiller (dragging I know)... but I quickly controlled that and it usually resulted in me cranking on more backstay to balance.

Bring on the criticism... I can take it.

C&C 32 Smith Mountain Lake Virginia

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 08:56:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
the QUESTION is: Would it be better to run 155 and reef main so you power through the puffs (and loose some speed in the lulls) or is it better to run as much sail as you can, and twist off, and dump traveler to keep it on its feet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You won't hear any criticism from me.

The "aid" that I use to help decide whether to reef the main is that I ease the mainsheet out until the sail luffs, and, if the boat is on the borderline of being overpowered when it's sailing closehauled on the genoa alone, it's time to reef. My reasoning is that the genoa is really the sail that is doing all the hard work of driving the boat. The function of the mainsail in that situation is really only to provide a little push to help keep the boat pointing to windward. Too much mainsail makes it difficult to keep the boat on it's feet, and excess heeling generates enormous drag, and will slow the boat. By reefing in that situation, you reduce the tendency of the boat to heel excessively. You might lose a little speed in the lulls, but you will maintain higher speed in the puffs by keeping her on her feet. If the boat is sailing a higher percentage of the time in puffs than in lulls, then you should reef.

Like most racers, I am loath to reduce sail area when the wind pipes up, but, if you make the right call, and reef when necessary, and when others don't, you'll leave them behind.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 12:12:34

How can we criticize when you placed after that start?

As for the reef, apparently the wind faked you out--been there... The rest was textbook. From your description, the course didn't have a true windward leg requiring a tack onto a layline... (?) so it was a two-way drag-race. If so, your more powerful Dacron sail might have turned out to be the best choice--the only improvement might have been the reef, which just might have helped get you on plane by keeping you a little more upright. (Lots of "mights" there.) As for the vang, a quick tug might have answered that question--but again, not going fully to windward, it might not have helped.

Anyway, congrats for climbing out of the dungeon!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/08/2013 12:32:06

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 13:32:50

If you want the top of the mainsail to twist off, to reduce heeling, you need to ease the vang.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 15:57:44

We have these races from time to time... not the RC fault our lake is narrow, and sometimes setting up a real windward leg is tough.

Ok another tough question... When are you overpowered?
I gauge it NOT by heel, but by amount of work angle of the tiller/rudder. I was told if you are above 5 degrees on that tiller (even if it feels light) on the Capri, you likely are stalling it. I can usually hear when I am dragging it though, but it's a fine line, after which the boat really rounds up. It's deeper than I expected too, it's probably past 20 degrees of heel, somewhere between 21-23, but my LEV-O-GAUGE is not that precise. For sure 25 is way over.. 30 is washing the rail, and sometimes that's gonna happen no matter how hard you try to flatten it out.

I want every go-fast tip you guys have... I'm on a mission.

I know my starts need to be better (DUH that'll get me in cleaner air and might make ALL the difference).... we have a fun race this weekend and I will be at the line luffing if I have to! I gotta know if all my work has me competitive with our "fastest" racer. He rates faster than me but I want a boat for boat match... I just KNOW I can do it. I also know if we have a TRUE downwind leg... My spin will have me faster than ALL the boats (I've witnessed it countless times, I lose it on the upwind leg).

Edited by - shnool on 08/08/2013 15:58:54

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 17:54:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 Ok another tough question... When are you overpowered?
I gauge it NOT by heel, but by amount of work angle of the tiller/rudder. I was told if you are above 5 degrees on that tiller (even if it feels light) on the Capri, you likely are stalling it. I can usually hear when I am dragging it though, but it's a fine line, after which the boat really rounds up. It's deeper than I expected too, it's probably past 20 degrees of heel, somewhere between 21-23, but my LEV-O-GAUGE is not that precise. For sure 25 is way over.. 30 is washing the rail, and sometimes that's gonna happen no matter how hard you try to flatten it out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When the boat is heeling excessively, and you feel excessive tiller pressure, the boat is overpowered. If you can depower it by using sail trimming techniques, that's fine, but if you can't, then it's time to reduce sail area. There is a common misconception that, if you trim the sails so that they are perfectly smooth and unwrinkled, that's fast. While it is true that the jib should be smooth and unwrinkled, when sailing closehauled, about the forward 1/3 of the mainsail will be severely backwinded by the genoa (commonly called the "bubble") in 12-15 kts of wind. Sailing with a bubble in the mainsail in stronger winds is good sail trim and fast. The mainsheet should generally be tensioned so that the upper batten is in line with the boom, but not so much tension as to cause a cupping of the leech. The traveler should be adjusted so that the boom never points higher than the backstay. In the gusts, the traveler should be eased to leeward, to prevent the boat from heeling excessively. When the gust dissipates, bring the traveler up again. The mainsheet should only be dumped when easing the traveler is insufficient to prevent the boat from rounding up. When the boat is close to being overpowered most of the time, I don't play the backstay adjuster. I only play the traveler. My C25 didn't have a knotmeter, so I trimmed the sails by the feel of the tiller pressure. A more accurate way to trim the sails, however, is by using a knotmeter. If you watch the knotmeter when you make a sail trim adjustment, you can see whether or not it is increasing your boatspeed.

I can only guess, but, based on what you have said, I think you are overtensioning your mainsail, and it is causing your boat to heel excessively. Excessive heel is creating excessive drag. If you tension the mainsheet, as I described, and then ease the traveler to leeward when the boat begins to heel past 12 or so degrees, you should be faster to windward. (I don't know what the optimal heeling angle is for the Capri 25.) When I say ease the traveler, I don't mean dump it. Ease it in proportion to the strength of the gust, just far enough to keep her from heeling excessively.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/08/2013 20:02:05

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 19:53:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 ...I was told if you are above 5 degrees on that tiller (even if it feels light) on the Capri, you likely are stalling it...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've heard about the same, and that 2-3 degrees weather helm is optimal--faster than neutral. (Something about increasing the lift of the keel.) I wouldn't call 5 degrees "stalling", but it could be starting to add drag. If the Capri rudder has some balance to its design, the tiller pressure isn't the best measure because the forward part of the blade is counteracting (i.e. hiding) it--great for cruisers, not so much for racers.

The wide beam aft and long wedge shape of the Capri hull (almost IOR-style) will tend to induce rounding up as the rudder becomes less vertical. The more you heel, the less symmetrical that hull form becomes, and the less lift your rudder has to counteract the effect of the hull shape--thus the more degrees of weather helm, which adds drag. Since the main on the mast-head rig generates more heel and less drive than the genny, reefing and/or twisting it off, and/or feathering with the traveler on a beat, is probably the more effective way to keep her on her feet, reduce drag, and go fast. So I'll just recommend keeping those decks dry.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/08/2013 20:11:47

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 20:04:17

No doubt we don't dump the traveler but ease. My bad choice of words... although dump is accurate if we get a +10.
Also no doubt water over the rail is TOO much heel.

Hull form is DEFINITELY pulling quickly the foils out of the water... but I find it fascinating how much helm I have all the way up to 30 degrees (yeah I know NOT the right way to sail). I've read it's a uniquely large rudder for a boat this size which is why some point to number of degrees of tiller. Balance must be pretty close on the boat now too (I thank EP Sails for their tuning guide), because my tiller pilot (not using for racing of course) can hold the boat and keep steering (except in really bursty gusts) the boat without over-correcting.

I always thought the CAPRI 25 was more MORC than IOR (with IOR being halmarked by hourglass sterns, narrow/fine bow entry, and a bulbous aft section, usually all headsail, little main)... MORC is slightly more balanced... a good IOR example I can think of is here (Garry Mull design):

a decent early MORC design soverel 26:

Some great early MORC boats are the S2 7.9, the Capri 25, Capri 30, and early J boats (like the J/30), and Lindeburg 26 (this was my first exposure as a kid to a real racing sailboat a friends father had one that just MOPPED UP in our local PHRF series) http://www.lindenberg26.org/.

Edited by - shnool on 08/08/2013 20:13:50

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 20:17:58

By the way, keep them coming I want NO STONE UNTURNED.

I used THIS as my guide to tuning the boat. I followed it as close as I could. I am running about 8-10 inches of rake, I found 12 inches on my boat to be too much rake. I could not measure my forestay, but I have VERY little room left to adjust. I did NOT add shackles to make it longer (I know that wasn't recommended, just figured I'd share that I didn't do that).
http://www.wyc.org/c25/SailingTips/ElliottPattisonTuningGuide.aspx

For this race I took up half a turn on each upper, and each lower. I usually run a bit loose on the rig as most of our races are in under 8mph winds.

I for all intents and purposes I have 4 settings on my outhaul (of course it's infinitely adjustable)... 0 is all the way on ... in light air I set usually to 2 sometimes 3 (these are roughly inches). For this race I was at about 1.5. Cunny was just snug. Genoa halyard was on snug, taking slack out of the luff tape (nothing more). The Main Halyard was on snug (to keep the boom up)... Cunny was only on enough to keep tension on the halyard, no crinkles introduced, draft was correct forward of center (as they say forward 40%) I've noted on the new loadpath main adjusting cunny is only necessary above say 25mph winds.

Anyway hoping we have wind this Sunday, I can try some of this stuff.

Edited by - shnool on 08/08/2013 20:24:48

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2013 : 21:02:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 I always thought the CAPRI 25 was more MORC than IOR (with IOR being halmarked by hourglass sterns, narrow/fine bow entry, and a bulbous aft section, usually all headsail, little main)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Perhaps... I was (in my mind) comparing your Capri 25 to my (once) Catalina 25, where the Capri carries more beam (14") further aft, with a relatively pinched stern and relatively long wedge entry (compared to the Cat). I think of those characteristics as IOR-inspired, although there certainly are more extreme examples, and MORC is more balanced. The beam aft and long wedge tends to drive to push the bow to windward when heeled--that's all I was getting at.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/08/2013 21:06:33

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2013 : 04:55:43

In my last post, I think I misled you by a poor choice of words. I said: "I think you are overtensioning your mainsail." That isn't exactly what I meant. Based on your description of your outhaul and halliard tension, you appear to be tensioning the sail itself very well.

What I meant to say is that, when most people see the mainsail backwinded by the jib, they try to make it lay down by pulling the traveler further to windward. Don't try to get the sail's luff to lay down. That isn't fast sail trim. The bubble is a visual indication that the mainsail is depowered, which is what you want to do in strong winds. As between the mainsail and the jib, the mainsail is responsible for creating most of the heeling moment, so, in order to keep the boat on it's feet, you should depower the mainsail, thereby reducing the heeling moment. In strong winds, the jib is providing most of the power that is driving the boat forward. The mainsail contributes very little to forward drive. It's purpose is to put a little pressure aft of the center of lateral resistance, to help the boat point to windward. You don't need all the power that the mainsail is capable of generating to serve that purpose. If the forward 1/3 of the mainsail is being backwinded, but the leech is laying down, the pressure on the leech is enough to serve that purpose.

So, what I'm suggesting is that, in strong winds, the traveler should not be trimmed in to the centerline of the boat. The traveler should be eased to leeward. The question, of course is "How far should you ease it to leeward?" I can't give you a formula for that, but I can say that you should probably ease the traveler quite a bit more than you think you should. If you are "in tune" with your boat, you will sense that it is standing a little more upright, and sailing a little more free, the tiller pressure will decrease substantially, and the boat won't be trying so hard to round up to windward.

By establishing the correct balance between the pressures forward and aft of the center of lateral resistance, your boat speed will increase, and increasing the boat speed enables the boat to point higher. Thus, by easing the traveler in strong winds, the boat will foot faster and point higher.

My suggestion is that you experiment with easing the traveler substantially in stronger winds. I think that's where you'll find more speed and better pointing to windward.

A good sail trimmer should be communicating often with the helmsman, asking whether he is feeling excess tiller pressure. If so, the cause of excess tiller pressure and excess heeling is almost certainly attributable to mainsail trim. If you can figure out how to depower the mainsail, the boat will sail faster and point higher.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/09/2013 05:07:23

TCurran
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2013 : 04:47:43

John...the guys above are a lot smarter than I and answered your questions in the post so I'll not comment about sail shape, trimming and show how much I don't know. But I will answer your question in the subject line.

After Island Time was damaged and I sold it, thought I'd be happy racing my Watkins in our club, but found couldn't get use to watching the fleet from the rear and getting back to the clubhouse when most of the crews were on their second (or third) round so I decided to buy a beater C22, strip her down and race her (I was looking at a Capri 25 but the owner didn't communicate very well).

Yesterday was her maiden race. Didn't expect much, my one practice sail Thursday revealed my sails were just what I expected, old and stretched. We had a good ~10 knot breeze, 16 boats, and the RC set a good course. After a decent start with most choosing the west side of the course Confetti, two other boats and I went east. Even with the tiller breaking in DaveR's hand half way through the first leg we rounded the mark in third, only behind Confetti and the 32 O'Day. We held third for the rest of the race, not making any any time on the two in front of us and stretching our lead on the boats behind use.

I know this is not the C22 forum...but since you asked the question and the C22 forum is nothing like this one, I figured I'd comment.

Edited by - TCurran on 08/11/2013 04:49:05

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2013 : 08:12:33

Great story, Tom... There was a C-22 in a town near me that would regularly humiliate my C-25 SR/FK out on Long Island Sound--not in a race, but of course when there are two sailboats going the same direction...

He had dark sails including a deck-sweeper, while I had marginal cruising sails. The C-22 is an oft-under-respected boat! I'm waiting to hear about Derek Crawford's escapades on his... (He's not used to losing races!

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/11/2013 08:14:23

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2013 : 18:42:15

Guys we had a C-22 place 2nd in race last weekend, LOTS of respect for a well sailed C-22!

We had a charity race today (not part of our normal series)... Winds were light, 5-8mph winds. 3 of the guys who regularly bring their A game to our fleet were not sailing in it (one because he was the RC). But we raced against 12 other boats, including 3 other faster boats (B25, J/22, S2).

We won the race, and had a blast doing it. Actually we were ahead physically for about half the race. We blew our lead at the end while messing with the spinnaker (I won't go into the detail on that, but suffice to say if I had been serious I'd have not gone through that process).

I look forward putting all the info I gain here to keep my skills competitive with our fleet.

Edited by - shnool on 08/25/2013 17:05:40

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2013 : 17:34:33

Another race in our series today... this Capri 25 amazes me on how it sails... We STINK at launching the spinnaker. I submit some of its how the boat it setup (my bad I never expected to have REAL crew this year) some of it's lack of practice by the crew (just a sign of people's busy schedules and all my crew lives 1.5 hours away), but regardless... lemme explain my statement...

Twice we messed up SO bad the entire fleet passed us (downwind leg was RIGHT after the short leg first start)... it took us almost 8 minutes to get the chute up (when others launched theirs as they rounded the mark - as you are supposed to). We were watching the leaders pass the halfway point to the 2nd mark, and we finally SET (I kept genoa up or we'd have really been sunk), and then we started to ROLL! Winds were VERY light 6-8mph, gusts to perhaps 10. We caught the whole fleet by the 2nd rounding, no passed them!

We lost ground to the faster boats upwind (some of that was messing with genoa cars and trim - new crew long story). 2nd lap we did the same thing again, 6 minutes messing with the spinnaker and again we lost the whole fleet.... (gotta get this spinnaker launch sorted)... anyway, we caught everyone again by the mark (passed them all just before the mark).

What I've found is downwind in light air this Capri is pretty unstoppable. It's SUCH a rush to get it above hull speed and gunning down much faster boats. I dunno how we finished, but I am pretty sure we were in the top 3 or 4. We were physically 3rd across the finish.

Dead downwind (maybe 170degrees) we were getting our telltales and masthead apparent winds coming almost to beam... I was surprised at that (I am betting because we were making a good percentage of the wind speed downwind, at least 50%, maybe 60 or 70%).

Either way, this boat continues to surprise me...

Oh and finally had a complete crew today.. 4 of us... 3 adults, then myself, and my 10 year old daughter (total of 5) she was sitting at the stern calling puffs to me, and watching for boats. She actually was a huge help. She took pictures the whole time... and there isn't a competitive bone in her body NO... all season we've been gunning for the top sailor in the club, and my daughter knows who it is... so the MINUTE we rounded the mark ahead of them, she got pictures of them behind us... heheheh.. But they were AWESOME pictures, so we are sending them along to them (it's OK I am quite sure they kicked our butts today anyway).

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2013 : 18:29:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 Another race in our series today... this Capri 25 amazes me on how it sails... We STINK at launching the spinnaker. I submit some of its how the boat it setup (my bad I never expected to have REAL crew this year) some of it's lack of practice by the crew (just a sign of people's busy schedules and all my crew lives 1.5 hours away), but regardless... lemme explain my statement...

Twice we messed up SO bad the entire fleet passed us (downwind leg was RIGHT after the short leg first start)... it took us almost 8 minutes to get the chute up (when others launched theirs as they rounded the mark - as you are supposed to). We were watching the leaders pass the halfway point to the 2nd mark, and we finally SET (I kept genoa up or we'd have really been sunk), and then we started to ROLL! Winds were VERY light 6-8mph, gusts to perhaps 10. We caught the whole fleet by the 2nd rounding, no passed them!

We lost ground to the faster boats upwind (some of that was messing with genoa cars and trim - new crew long story). 2nd lap we did the same thing again, 6 minutes messing with the spinnaker and again we lost the whole fleet.... (gotta get this spinnaker launch sorted)... anyway, we caught everyone again by the mark (passed them all just before the mark).

What I've found is downwind in light air this Capri is pretty unstoppable. It's SUCH a rush to get it above hull speed and gunning down much faster boats. I dunno how we finished, but I am pretty sure we were in the top 3 or 4. We were physically 3rd across the finish.

Dead downwind (maybe 170degrees) we were getting our telltales and masthead apparent winds coming almost to beam... I was surprised at that (I am betting because we were making a good percentage of the wind speed downwind, at least 50%, maybe 60 or 70%).

Either way, this boat continues to surprise me...

Oh and finally had a complete crew today.. 4 of us... 3 adults, then myself, and my 10 year old daughter (total of 5) she was sitting at the stern calling puffs to me, and watching for boats. She actually was a huge help. She took pictures the whole time... and there isn't a competitive bone in her body NO... all season we've been gunning for the top sailor in the club, and my daughter knows who it is... so the MINUTE we rounded the mark ahead of them, she got pictures of them behind us... heheheh.. But they were AWESOME pictures, so we are sending them along to them (it's OK I am quite sure they kicked our butts today anyway).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From your post it sounds like you are using a regular spinnaker (as opposed to an asymmetrical). Have you tried the rubber band technique? Use very light rubber bands to bind the three points of the spinnaker so it comes out of the bag quickly and as it starts to fill the bands will break and it will fill. Also are you clipping the bag to the rail with all the lines properly hooked up?
Each step will save you some seconds and boat lengths.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2013 : 18:56:48

No rubber bands (for fear someone will invoke the no garbage overboard rule)...

I've attempted to get the crew to run lines first, but the biggest problem they have is they run them under way , all things you'd iron out with some practice. If we run the lines first it dictates which side we launch from (I am not real reliable knowing which side we are going to launch on). So they are following my direction on that one. We don't know courses until we hit the pre-start. I agree though we SHOULD be able to figure what side we're launching on at that point, and we should setup at that point.

The Crew is begging we go back to pulpit launch, when I switched us to companionway launch.. I KNOW relaunch is easier, since takedown is easier, we've just not gone through it as a procedure yet. Again Practice.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2013 : 20:51:26

Try using lightweight sewing thread instead of rubber bands. You'd have to try a few different sizes to get the correct one but it used to work for us back in the 70's on a C-27.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2013 : 04:54:48

Around here the control lines for symmetrical spinnakers are all rigged, before leaving the dock, with two sets of sheets and guys. On each side, a guy is clipped to the bow pulpit and run aft, and then a sheet is clipped to the ring of the guy's shackle and run aft. That way, you have a sheet and a guy on each side, and you don't have to re-rig them while under way.

Your foredeck crew should establish a fixed sequence of events for rigging and raising the spinnaker, and follow that sequence every time. By doing so, if he forgets a step in the process he will often have a nagging feeling that he forgot something, and start re-checking everything to find it.

Before he uses a halliard, he should look up to make sure it isn't wrapped around another halliard or fouled in some other way. Then he should attach the halliard to the bow pulpit until he's ready to connect it to the spinnaker and raise the sail.

Someone in the cockpit needs to watch and listen to the foredeck, and release line stoppers, or take in slack in line whenever the foredeck ask for it. He can't do everything by himself. He needs cockpit crew to back him up.

Whenever a mistake is made in the process of rigging and raising the chute, talk through it after the race, and find a way to prevent it's recurrence. Sometimes that might require someone in the cockpit to watch the foredeck and look for mistakes or omissions and bring them to his attention.

Generally, the key to efficient spinnaker handling is to get everything correctly rigged before rounding the mark, and to eliminate errors and omissions. If the spinnaker hasn't been rigged correctly before you round the mark, then you'll lose precious time after rounding, finding and correcting the problem. Establishing a fixed routine will help to eliminate errors and omissions.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2013 : 05:38:17

Steve, sounds like you folks rig like the big boats (nothing wrong with that by the way, but I am trying to reduce cockpit line clutter, and using a sheet and guy PER side might be overkill on a 25 footer)... I was interested in using twings, and getting the gear to rig up.

Also sounds like you folks are launching from the pulpit as well. I've seen people do both, and for launch the pulpit is MUCH easier (although hourglassing it is easier - which is easily avoided with a proper pre-feed of the clew and a proper sail pack)... But I've found companionway douses are 1000 times easier... and if you have 2 or 3 chute sets in a race (we do sometimes) it's easier to relaunch if you doused to the companionway (just my observation, don't shoot me).

NO QUESTION we need to pre-rig before we leave dock. I am NOT opposed to a pulpit launch either. I just wanna know how we do that WELL and do multiple launches (it seems like a lot of work repacking the chute after a douse to pulpit launch).

One other thing that the crew suggested (and believe me I want to make this easier for them AND me) is soft-shackles (well they asked for snap shackles, I suggested the soft shackles). When something gets hosed up they want an easy way to remove a sheet/guy. I can't argue with that logic. I had tied bowlines in the clews. I also used VERY long lines for the sheets, so that you can starboard or port launch the spin from the companionway. I used the J/24 harken launch bag.. this one:

I know there is probably still debate over bow versus companionway launch... I am just trying to sort through suggestions to make this easier.

Steve I think I'll go over what steps I go through to launch (when I do it myself) and maybe I'm not relaying that to my crew. The biggest problem we have is we don't get time to practice.

You can kind of see what I've rigged here:

Note the downhaul/foreguy are at the mast base now... A twing would bring that sheet more under control too, and yes I know having a sheet and a guy would help that too.

That shot was in very light air 1 week ago (8/22) when I solo launched the spin. I wouldn't ask anyone to do something I hadn't done myself.

No question we need to get the spinnaker rigged before our rounding... was the argument I made. My biggest failing (as helmsman) is I don't give them a proper clue as to what side we are launching on... I need to pick one and stick with it for the rounding (our winds are squirrly and we don't always know if we'll get a real downwind run or not, but I know it's no excuse for not being ready).

Either way, again, thanks for all the tips... NOW to go make this happen!

Edited by - shnool on 08/26/2013 05:56:09

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2013 : 07:00:13

This spring I took a course at J World Annapolis on spinnaker flying, and they hoisted the spinnaker from the bow pulpit, doused it into the companionway hatch, and then re-hoisted it, without re-packing or re-rigging it, from the companionway hatch. If you don't mess with the lines, the spinnaker should ordinarily come back out of the companionway the same way it went in.

You're right that we use multiple sheets and guys on big boats, and that it can clutter the cockpit, but I'm wondering (just thinking out loud) if that can be avoided to a manageable extent by hanging sheet bags in the cockpit, to contain each line until it is used.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2013 : 12:35:38

Steve: I've got 3M hooks to hang my halyards on, (and foreguy, and topping lifts)... it works OK (and I considered Halyard bags instead)... but sheet bags? they'd pretty much have to be by the turning blocks all the way aft (best I can think)... which I guess there is room on either side of the post for the tiller.

Just got corrected results for yesterdays race.. We placed 2nd overall and 2nd for our fleet. I was 7 minutes corrected behind first (he played an odd windward lake side puff that gave a favorable most of the way towards the mark, a great move - his is an S2 7.9), and 3 minutes corrected ahead of 3rd (Hunter 25.5 - yep he's pretty good, and he finished almost 17 minutes behind me in real time), and 3:20ish ahead of 4th place (J22, which finished just ahead of us in real time)...

Again I am amazed at how much power (in relation to fractional rigged spinnakers) the masthead spinnaker of the Capri 25 provides when run. If we get it ironed out correctly we'll be pretty unstoppable.

Edited by - on

JackAttack
Deckhand

Members Avatar

2 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2013 : 18:25:55

This thread has been an awesome read. Thanks for posting the race reports and suggestions.

I had just purchased a Catalina 25 at the beginning of the summer, my first sailboat. I am quickly learning as much as possible and have been watching the weekly races from the sidelines. I cannot wait to finally get my courage up to join. I feel that I need more skills. I will definitely be there by the next summer.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

Members Avatar

830 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2013 : 19:13:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JackAttack
 This thread has been an awesome read. Thanks for posting the race reports and suggestions.

I had just purchased a Catalina 25 at the beginning of the summer, my first sailboat. I am quickly learning as much as possible and have been watching the weekly races from the sidelines. I cannot wait to finally get my courage up to join. I feel that I need more skills. I will definitely be there by the next summer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A wonderful place to sail and race.
How many assoc boats, i.e. C-25's. C-250's and Capri 25's do you see racing on a regular basis?

Edited by - on

JackAttack
Deckhand

Members Avatar

2 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2013 : 21:40:45

One or two 25+ boats at the most. Lots of smaller fast boats though.

I just want to get out and run, don't really care as long as I learn something and have fun. My boat is a tank compared to most of them.

My headsail is tearing and I was searching for replacement options when I found this thread. I was going to go with a 135 Genoa, but thinking about 150 if I want to try to race. The boat came with an asymmetrical spinnaker ( which I have no idea how to unfurl). So far most of my sailing would make better use of the 135 though.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 03:33:27

our marina held its first regatta in many years: fun race only. We took line honors with a great start and finished 2nd in the big boat division, corrected to the scotch whiskey (3rd): 5th overall.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.