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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Sail trim.......

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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/21/2013 : 16:32:39

Of course, most of our boats don't have all these sail controls, but good info anyway:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TttqFylquFs"]Sail trim # 1[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyOIeVl1meY"]Sail trim # 2[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0IvU59u5Vg"]Sail trim # 3[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBcq3PSKFRw"]Sail trim # 4[/url]

Happy Sailing....

My wife asked if we could bend our mast like that, like in video # 3.....

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2013 : 19:19:01

Little bit of fractional rig and double spreader goodness, and YOU too could bend like that.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2013 : 05:46:25

Serious racers should pay special attention to the part, in the video on trimming the mainsail, about playing the traveler, because, as he explains, it generates higher speeds and better pointing, and, if you are doing it and your competitors aren't, you will have an obvious advantage. It isn't being done on most racers because skilled crew are in short supply, and skippers often have to use whoever shows up, which is often a young, eager guy with limited skills. I only learned it last year, at age 70, after racing all my life, because two very smart skippers took the time to teach me how to do it. The video explains it fairly well, and if you learn how to do it, you will be able to generate speed and pointing beyond what your competitors can do. As the video points out, you need a knotmeter to do it, because, by watching the knotmeter while adjusting the traveler, you can see how the boat speed is affected by each traveler movement. You need that feedback from the knotmeter to tell you which way to trim the traveler. What you will find surprising is how far you will often ease the traveler below the centerline of the boat to maximize speed.

Also, watch how the helmsman in the video steers the boat through a tack. Most helmsmen turn the boat way too far before they stop the turn. The result is that the genoa loads up before the tailer can pull in all the jibsheet, so the sail starts out by being way too full. As a result, the only way the tailer can trim the loaded genoa in to closehauled is by grinding the winch hard. That makes your tailer arm-weary. If the helmsman stops the turn when the boat comes to a point just shy of being closehauled on the new heading, the tailer can trim in most of the jibsheet by hand, without having to grind the winch. When the helmsman sees that the sheet is tailed in, then he can bear off the last few degrees and load up the jib. The question most helmsmen would ask is, "How do you know when to stop turning the boat?" The way I do it is that, when tacking, I watch the windex, at the top of the mast, all the way through the tack. When the arrow's feathers are pointing just inside the index, that tells me that, if the sails were trimmed, the boat would be pinching a bit. At that angle, the jib won't be loading up heavily, and the tailer will be able to tail the sheet much more easily.

Those are good videos.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2013 : 06:32:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Serious racers should pay special attention to the part, in the video on trimming the mainsail, about playing the traveler, because, as he explains, it generates higher speeds and better pointing, and, if you are doing it and your competitors aren't, you will have an obvious advantage...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...if only the C-25 had a meaningful traveler--mine never seemed to help the way they did on other boats I sailed. It's a good reason to convert to mid-boom sheeting with a traveler across the seats at the bulkhead, except that's class-illegal (and logically should lower your PHRF).

Questions come up about the length of the boom--it might be that it was extended to improve the sheeting angle so the tiny traveler is at least somewhat more effective. (...or maybe it was an attempt to reduce beheadings of skippers.)

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2013 : 09:08:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 ...if only the C-25 had a meaningful traveler--mine never seemed to help the way they did on other boats I sailed. It's a good reason to convert to mid-boom sheeting with a traveler across the seats at the bulkhead, except that's class-illegal (and logically should lower your PHRF).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The traveler on a C25 works basically the same way as any traveler. It's main drawback is that it is very awkward to use. The helmsman has turn turn halfway around to adjust it. I have always thought Derek's modification to the traveler is ingenious AND class legal. It routes the traveler's control line to a place where a crew member other than the helmsman can operate it, and the crew member can look forward, and watch the knotmeter while he adjusts it.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2013 : 10:17:10

So true, Steve. Until I made the mods it was virtually impossible to use the traveler. After the mods it became an essential weapon in sail trim.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2013 : 11:26:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 So true, Steve. Until I made the mods it was virtually impossible to use the traveler. After the mods it became an essential weapon in sail trim.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, Derek, have you also added some mechanical advantage to the traveler lines on each coaming, like 3:1 blocks? Without those, how can you adjust the traveler other than releasing it before each tack, when beating to windward?

All of the commercially available traveler systems have those blocks built in - 3:1 or 4:1, I guess. [url="http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/photo-g/sailboat-mainsail-traveler-21572-223941.jpg"]Here[/url] is a big photo of a 4:1 setup for a mid-boom mainsheet.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2013 : 14:05:06

I didn't add any mechanical advantage, it's not necessary. The control lines are brought down the transom almost to the cockpit floor and then led to mid-cockpit through turning blocks and then up the cockpit sides to cam cleats. When ready to tack the crew center the traveler and when set on the new tack re-adjust the traveler. It does not take a lot of strength.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2013 : 11:50:08

Thanks, that's interesting.

So, maybe the 2 (or 3?) turning blocks you mentioned result in reducing the required force by half, by way of the down-over-up change in direction of the line. One reversal gives a 2:1 advantage.

Does that make sense?

If it's a 50% reduction in force needed, that might make trimming the traveler "up" and "down" feasible when sailing with 5-15 knots of breeze, and the improved operating position you use would help a lot with the ergonomics.

The original design is very hard to use by pushing sideways when tensioning the line in the outboard direction at the transom.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2013 : 19:18:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 Little bit of fractional rig and double spreader goodness, and YOU too could bend like that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The Capri 22s at Island Sailing Club on Lake Washington all had their masts bent like that, even sitting at the dock. I got the feeling that they've been bent so hard that the mast is permanently deformed.

I've never raced, so I'm not used to seeing stuff like that.

Edited by - TakeFive on 08/24/2013 19:19:16

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