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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Smaller sail for tall mast rig?

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Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/27/2013 : 17:46:15

I was reading about tall rig owners doing various things to make their tall mast 250 not so tender. I will need a new main sail this winter so I was trying to come up with the best option for my situation. I do not race and bought the 250 for its spacious cockpit and cabin. I do feel it is easily overpowered especially after coming off of my catalina 22. We always seem to have enough wind up here to get going plenty fast enough and am having trouble sailing both sails without rounding up when the gust hit us. With my 135 furling jib I feel I have more than enough power in the lighter wind. I have one reef in my sail now just because it is more than enough for our afternoon breezes. My thought was to maybe buy a standard main and run it on my tall rig. Any thoughts? Or I read another post on here that had custom sails made, not as small as a standard but not as big is the tall rig. My thoughts are if I go with the standard size and decide to shorten the mast later I will only have to deal with my genoa and that could be smaller as well. This boat seems to get moving real easy so I don't feel I need so much sail. My wife, friends and dogs like the flatter sailing and a happy family is the main reason for owning this boat. Any advice would be of much help.

1998 250 WK/TR #355 "Trail Break"
Lake Tahoe California

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 17:55:30

I've had the exact same thoughts, but our main is in pretty good shape, so I'm unlikely to make the change any time soon.

Our boats can sail quite nicely on the jib only. And in enough wind, we can easily make hull speed without the main even up. We have been able to get to hull speed in 10kts of wind on just our 110% jib.

I totally get the "sail flatter makes for a happier family", my wife is very heeling adverse.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 18:13:26

I think your observations help to explain why Catalina discontinued the C250 tall rig version. These boats move very nicely in light air with the smaller sailplan.

If you do go with a smaller mainsail, you might consider raising the boom a bit. I know this runs counter to your desire to make the boat less tender, but a higher boom could open up lots of options for a full cockpit bimini, something that I really wish I had. If a standard rig sail is 3' shorter, you might make it 2' lower at the top and 1' higher at the bottom. This would reduce the tenderness, but give you much more space under the boom.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 18:33:32

Just thinking out of the box... I wonder if anyone would like to trade their standard rig for your tall--the mast, rigging, sails,... everything related to the size. Except for transporting the mast, it could be a relatively easy swap. A PHRF racer in a light air venue might be able to create havoc with your rig--the C-250 Tall is almost unheard of. (I know--that'd be cheating.

)

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Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2013 : 18:54:19

I do think the standard size sail and higher boom with bigger bimini is the exact set up I was thinking of doing. We need a bimini but didn't want one that was really low or one that only covered the back seats. Sounds like a perfect set up as this would meet all of my plans for making a fun comfortable weekend cruiser. I have been out on the lake every weekend this season and we have always had at least 10mph winds to start and the they increase until sun down. Jib only has provided many evening autopilot evening cruises at a nice pace. We do love this boat. So big feeling for a small boat.

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Ian Brisbane
1st Mate

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Australia
37 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2013 : 23:41:24

Hi Mate

Don't touch your tall rig yet, I have been working through the same issues myself and today just went out on a magical sail with my new 105% jib sheeted inboard and a huge 51sqm symmetrical Spinnaker in winds from 8-14knots and managed to fly the kite shy to 70 degrees. pictures of the jib sheeted inboard to follow on my old post but with a dirty bottom we got to 40 degrees true wind at 5.6knots so very happy and totally in control. will send more info as complete rig is v different from standard rig to make it happen, but have been celebrating having a boat worth sailing with friends and fear that my speech is blurred! will update tomorrow when i can stand straight!

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Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 15:49:20

Not going to do anything drastic just yet. I have a reef set in my main which puts me at about a standard rig set up. I fly my genoa at about 100% and it seems to be just right for our winds up here. We get a lot of gust so I don't want a lot of sail out which seems to help with the gust. Every time I think of shaking out the reef the wind picks up so I leave it be. Just waiting for the day I can put full sail out main and 135 genoa and confirm the need for so much sail. It won't happen until I reduce my main for good though. Murphy is always there watching me.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 16:19:21

Have you tried sailing on the 135 alone--full sail? Your C-250 is a little different from my C-25 (mast a little further forward), but we often did that when it was gusty and on the heavy side. The genny provides more drive with less heel than the main--its center of effort is considerably lower. You might be pleasantly surprised. (It's also extremely simple: pull one string and you're sailing; pull another and you're not.)

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Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 19:47:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Have you tried sailing on the 135 alone--full sail? Your C-250 is a little different from my C-25 (mast a little further forward), but we often did that when it was gusty and on the heavy side. The genny provides more drive with less heel than the main--its center of effort is considerably lower. You might be pleasantly surprised. (It's also extremely simple: pull one string and you're sailing; pull another and you're not.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes I have sailed with jib alone. It does not like the 25mph gust as there is no way to dump the power quickly. We go from 5 to 25 in seconds sometimes so smaller jib and mainsail is the norm unless we have a steady breeze then we can cruise jib alone and don't have to work as much.

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Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 21:33:55

Well today was the day my tall rig shined. I had full main and 100% jib flying and it was great. I did retune my rig this morning and removed 70 lbs of weight from forward bow. I have about 200 lbs up there now including the water tank. I fixed the 1/4" slop I had in the rudder and it all seemed to come together. Might hold onto this main for a while longer. Just have to get a better faster reefing system set up so I can keep family and guest happy. Today I was solo so I had her on edge right before weather helm reared her ugly head, results were pure bliss. First time I got to sail her without my family on board.

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djbano
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2013 : 16:45:27

Here in CO the wind can go from dead to force 4, backing the clocking within minutes. I have a tall rig and my new(er) main has the foot shortened. Resulting area is about that of a standard rig and my foils are taller. Easiest and best solution IMHO.

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Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2013 : 14:20:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djbano
 Here in CO the wind can go from dead to force 4, backing the clocking within minutes. I have a tall rig and my new(er) main has the foot shortened. Resulting area is about that of a standard rig and my foils are taller. Easiest and best solution IMHO.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djbano
 Here in CO the wind can go from dead to force 4, backing the clocking within minutes. I have a tall rig and my new(er) main has the foot shortened. Resulting area is about that of a standard rig and my foils are taller. Easiest and best solution IMHO.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What exactly do you mean for shorter foils? So your new main runs the length of the mast but is a foot shorter on the boom? What are you running for the foresail? I do find that genoa when furled in to the idea setting for our conditions 100-110% seems to hit the shrown and puts a lot of pressure on the lifelines. It would be nice to have it inboard of shrowds but it obviously would be an issue if I increased sail. Anyone want to trade a 135 pineapple furler for a 100%?

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djbano
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 07:23:04

Correct. The luff length is the same so my sail goes to top of mast. The foot, length along boom is 1ft shorter than original. My sail manufacturer, Hood, built me a 2nd main After the first one had too much roach even with a shorter foot. i had a lot of weather helm And rounding up. I have a high clewed 105 jib so I can easily see forward on the leeward side. My reservoir gets crowded and i frequently sail in the evening so sight lines are critical for safety. The jib looks a bit like a staysail or Yankee. When sheeted hard the sheets do rub on shrouds if the sail is partly furled. When the wind pipes up I still reef and still heel a lot more than the c25s, hunter 26.5s, S20, j22... The c250 is a tender boat. Great for family and spending time in the cockpit and weekends aboard. If sailing well were consideration #1 I'd get a different boat. Since I just sail and don't race I've made peace with the compromise.

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Dave Brown
Navigator

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USA
174 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 09:12:41

Sir,
Living in Nebraska we deal with wind speeds all over the scale, one day its 3mph the next its over 20mph. I also have a tall rig (we have 5 Catalina’s 250 at our lake, 3 tall, 2 short).
We understand that under full sail, when the wind comes up, the boat is hard to handle, So we reef. Most of us have 2 reef points in the main, and marks on the foot of the jib to know how much jib we have unrolled. Now here’s a good place to make a point, Mark the foot of your jib, use some kind of marker you can see from the cockpit, Mark it in 1/3,s. Now try the jib only unrolled out 1/3, then 2/3. Also move the jib cars FWD and move the jib sheets in board of the side stays. This will give you more control. (in the 1/3 and 2/3 range) Don’t forget to move the cars back, and the sheet lines outside when you go back to fill jib.
As for the tall rig, with the above control over the jib and 2 reef points in the main, I feel I can control my boat and sail area as well as anyone with as Std rig. Ps; and on light days, I sail right by them.
The, Bimini: My Bimini does not cover the catbird seats. I have it mounted over the cockpit, on sliders, so I can move it back and forth. I can fold it up, and then slid it back and tie it to the back stay, (standing up). As I sit in the cockpit, I have 6” over my head. (After I cut it down from 16” over my head) I cannot stand up under it, nor do I want to. If that’s your plan, STOP HERE. (the higher he Bimini, the smaller its going to be, boom height, backstay angle.) If standing up is not what you looking for then think about the following , re-drill the point where the main sheet connects to the boom, and move that hole FWD. about 1 ½ to 2 ft FWD. Reconnect the main sheet blocks to that point. Now sitting in the cockpit, look up and see how much bigger your Bimini could be. Now the last step isn’t for everyone, but it works for me. The boom keep hitting on the top of the Bimini, So I remove the Mainsail, then mark a line from the Bottom for the tack, to a point 8” above the clue. Now I take the sail down to my loco tent and canvas guy, or sail repair guy, and have him cut along that line and then rebuild the foot and the clue to like new. Once the rebuilt, I raised the sail and the boom (aft end) sits 8” above the Bimini. Sail area lost, what 3 Feet?
This is my 2 cents worth, Putting on a small rig or sail, Well that’s your call, but I think the same results can be done with reefing and sail choice. (jib or no jib).
Dave B.
____________/)________________/)___________________/)))))))__________________________

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Tahoe Cruiser
1st Mate

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USA
72 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 22:14:06

Went out after work today for a couple of hours winds were 5-10 mph and I was convinced that I will benefit from having the tall rig. I was moving very nicely with all sail out. It was a very nice evening. I have my clew reefing dialed in next is to dial my tack reefing easier by leading them back to cockpit with clutches instead of the reefing hooks I have now. I just keep falling in love with this boat a little more after every outing.

Side note. Was out Labor Day and Tahoe was blowing good. I only saw two other sailboats out. Catalina 34 and Hunter 32. I was single reefed with about 80% up front and was having a great sail. I found if I sheet out right when I feel excessive heel and bump the tiller to interrupt weather helm the boat keeps tracking instead of digging in the bow causing a round up. On my catalina 22 I would just fight the helm and usually pulled out of it. This boat is very suitable for rough chop and wind once you get the hang of it.

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