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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Motor Bracket - 08' 250 & Honda 9.9

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srf2
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/29/2013 : 07:40:57

I have a 2008 250 Wing Keel with wheel and a Honda 9.9 extra long shaft with electric tilt mounted directly on the transom.

The first issue I have is that the prop sits just barely under the water and the water line is below the antiventilation plate. (I looked up what that was called in my owners manual)

The second problem is that even when fully lowered, the motor is tilted slightly forward and does not sit parallel to the transom. This causes the prop to thrust slightly downward and gives the appearance of something not being right.

I need a heavy duty bracket that will lower the engine 6+ inches and allow me to adjust the angle as well. It would also have to me easy to use with such an heavy engine. Any suggestions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 08:56:04

Here's how I went about [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=17458&SearchTerms=mount,tohatsu"]mounting a Garelick engine mount[/url] to the transom of my C-250 WK.

Maybe that'll give you a place to start.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 10:25:04

From my recollection and David's pictures, it seems the Garelick bracket does not lower below horizontal, leaving the question of whether it will get your prop much deeper. The Garhauer bracket sold by CD (mostly for C-25s on which it was factory equipment) might do better.

I'm curious... I don't recall hearing of a depth issue this severe on the C-250 with an XL shaft. What is your measurement from the top of the transom inside the clamps, to the antiventillation plate? The XLS Honda should be about 27.5", and the L about 22.5". I'm wondering whether you have what you think you have.

As for the vertical trim, <s>have you tried moving the pin on the outside of the clamps, to one of the pairs of the holes further out (at the very bottom of the clamp)? That's what it's for...</s> Or is the pin missing? (I kinda suspect the latter.)

Edit: I misunderstood the terms "forward" and "downward", thinking it meant the shaft was forward so the propeller was driving the water downward. You meant the opposite.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/01/2013 08:23:25

srf2
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 12:00:53

Thank you both very much. I was wondering the same thing. The model # of the engine on my paperwork is BFP10DKXHT SL. I will measure, take some pictures and get the numbers off the engine after work tonight. I would really appreciate it if you both could look at it and tell me what you think after I post it. Thank you again.

Steven

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 15:23:40

That model number indicates extra-long:

BF - Honda
P - Power Thrust
10 - hp
DK - 2007 or 2008
X - Xtra long
H - Tiller handle steering
T - Power tilt/electric start
SL - ?? (Market, but unkown)

Edited by - on

srf2
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 16:48:47

Thanks Dave. I couldn't get down to the boat tonight but I'm going first thing in the AM. I just hope the numbers on the engine match my paperwork. Thanks again.

Edited by - on

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
240 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 18:17:54

I have a long shaft Honda 10hp on my 2002 C250WK. The motor is mounted on a fixed metal mount. I think it came from Catalina Direct (that is an assumption - I have seen the same mount on other C250s). I do not have any motor depth problems.

When I bought the boat, the motor was mounted directly on the transom. The mount was included but not installed. The PO said he removed the mount to try to get the weight forward to help with the round up problem. I used the motor mounted directly to the transom, again without a motor depth problem. I ultimately put the mount back on, because I have tiller steering and my tiller autopilot was not useable when the motor was tilted up.

Attached is photo of my motor hanging off the back of the boat.

Edited by - DavidCrosby on 08/29/2013 18:19:58

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 19:47:27

I have a 2003 c250 wk w a xl 8hp mounted on transom and have no issues. Ther are several adjustments to remedy those you mention. I'f you don't have a manual, you can get it online from Honda web site.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2013 : 21:45:38

I think you can see from David Crosby's picture why I was surprised... His fixed mount doesn't appear to lower the motor much--I think it's intended to allow him to turn the motor more for maneuvering around a dock, which is limited with a Honda mounted on the transom. His antiventillation plate is well below the waterline, as it would appear it would be if the motor was mounted as yours is. So I'm still perplexed...

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2013 : 17:48:39

I checked mine today, 2006 Honda 8 extra long shaft mounted on the transom, my antiventilation plate is about 10" below the surface with me in the cockpit and about 8" when I'm standing on the dock looking at it. Sounds like there is a mistake with the paperwork or they gave you the wrong engine.

Edited by - on

srf2
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 05:43:34

Thank you all for your help. Below are some pictures. The engine does match my paperwork - it is an extra long shaft. The angle adjustment pin was on the engine but I removed it for the pictures. Even with the pin removed I still have the angle down problem. The engine has power tilt and I suspect that is the reason for the angle issue. How does the depth of the prop look in these pictures?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all again.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 09:00:15

Something ain't right... Look closely at David's pictures, at the section of the lower unit just above the plate, with straight, vertical edges fore and aft. That is the "extension" that makes the outboard a Long or Extra-Long. His is probably 10" in height, making his lower unit 10" longer than the "short" model. The difference between the two extensions is 5", resulting in measurements from the clamp to the plate of 22.5" (L) or 27.5" (X?). The water might be distorting my view, but your extension appears to be shorter than David's. Your model numbers might say XL, but the actual hardware might just be L.

The tilt (vertical trim) issue is also puzzling. It almost looks like it's in a position for shallow water operation--see what your manual says about that. It could also be a problem with the power tilt. Note, however, that the bracket on David's transom is raked similarly to many power boat transoms, while the C-250 transom is essentially vertical. I can't tell from the picture, but David probably has the trim rod inserted in the holes that make his motor vertical. However, I haven't seen or heard of other owners with transom-mounted motors and your trim issue.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 11:04:33

The depth of the prop looks like mine but I don't have the rake, mine is vertical.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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4312 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 12:19:21

The problem is with the mounting.

The C250's transom is vertical. Most powerboat transom's are raked back something like 12 degrees. David's mount is vertical where it attaches to the transom but is raked back where the motor attaches.

Look at the angle srf2's motor is kicked out. Now visualize it being mounted so it's raked back the same as David's. To me it appears that srf2's motor would be vertical if it was mounted on a raked back mount.

If you look closely at some of srf2's close-up pictures there is a tab on the lower part of the motor swivel bracket that is down against the main bracket assembly preventing the motor from tucking any further up into the bracket. I assume this keeps the trim/tilt rods from bottoming out and being damaged.

Look's like the only way to remedy this issue is to mount the motor on a bracket or find some sort of wedge that would allow the motor to lean back when mounted to the transom.

I'd also recommend you put the tilt pin back in. The tab I referred to above appears to be a cast part and if you keep running the trim all the way in where that tab is constantly banging against the main bracket it could cause one or both tabs to snap off probably causing damage to the trim/tilt cylinders or rods.

Edited by - GaryB on 08/31/2013 12:23:34

srf2
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 13:59:27

Thank you very much for your input. It is very helpful. I will have it out of the water in 2-3 weeks and solve the problem over the winter. Thank you all again.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 15:22:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by srf2
 Thank you very much for your input. It is very helpful. I will have it out of the water in 2-3 weeks and solve the problem over the winter. Thank you all again.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A set of these with MORE wedge should take care of your problem and they are not very expensive! You may have to have a set made just for your situation because it appears the wedges are only about 5 degrees and you need more like 12 or 13 degrees.

[url="http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKZRyksqcadq5sCSikNvYZH0XgM8E1XN9BfawLdu6ocKQDL71kr4DSrwM"]Wedge #1[/url]

OR

[url="http://www.thmarine.com/userfiles/image/gallery/1221/TW-2-DP-outboard-performance-transom-wedges-5-degree-negative-trim-tuck-aluminum-INSTALLED-2-500.jpg"]Wedge #2[/url]

I'm thinking the easiest way to handle it would be to go the route David Crosby did by adding a bracket.

Edited by - GaryB on 08/31/2013 15:31:14

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 19:54:11

Before I started adding things or buying brackets, I think I would contact Honda and send them the pictures. It appears to me that there is a problem with your power tilt. Assuming it is the same mechianizm as a 250 Honda, the tube should be parllel to the mounting plate when in the full down position, not angled away from the plate. IMHO

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 21:06:55

...and check that shaft length--regardless of trim, it appears to be too short.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 21:10:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by srf2

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Did anyone else notice that srf2's 2008 boat has a nicely rounded edge where the hull joins the deck/transom? It seems that it would be much less prone to chipping than the sharper corner shown on DavidCrosby's boat (and my boat):

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidCrosby

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 21:31:32

The motor is trimmed in as far as it can go.

Notice the metal tab just below the 3 trim pin holes? It stops the motor from going in any further.

Also, notice up at the top of the brackets how they are flush with each other?

[/quote]

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 21:44:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 ...and check that shaft length--regardless of trim, it appears to be too short.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's hard to tell, I think some of it might be an optical illusion but you may be right.

The bottom picture below has about the clearest view of the extension and lower anti-ventilation plates. Looking at the distance between the upper and lower seams of the extension it appears to me to be about the same as on David's motor.

Guess we won't know for sure until srf measures the extension. Either way his anti-ventilation plates sit much lower than mine does and I've only had a problem one time with ventilation.

BTW... you can also see the other metal tab stopping the motor from trimming in any further. If you look closely you will notice the transom bracket on David's motor is completely different than the bracket on srf's motor. I would assume the motor's are different year models.

David Crosby's:

srf's

Edited by - GaryB on 08/31/2013 22:08:20

GaryB
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Response Posted - 08/31/2013 : 23:02:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by srf2
 Thank you both very much. I was wondering the same thing. The model # of the engine on my paperwork is BFP10DKXHT SL. I will measure, take some pictures and get the numbers off the engine after work tonight. I would really appreciate it if you both could look at it and tell me what you think after I post it. Thank you again.

Steven
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
According to Honda's website there is no such motor as a BFP10D. There is a BF100 but it's a much older motor and it's rated at 10HP. All of the 9.9 HP owners manuals listed are BFP9.9 model numbers.

[url="http://marine.honda.com/owners/manuals"]Honda Outboard Manuals[/url]

I "think" this is the correct Owner's Manual for your motor.

[url="http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/marine/pdf/manuals/00X31ZY06310.pdf"]BFP9.9 Owners Manual[/url]

By the way, if the serial number of your motor is in the range listed under the BF(P)9.9D model in this link you have a recall on your motor.

[url="http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/marine/pdf/recalls/P-PTB54263-Clip-Recall-Poster.pdf"]Recall[/url]

I found an Installation Manual that includes the BFP9.9D model. Reading through it, on Pg. 1-20 it states (for BFP9.9D's) that if the transom angle is less than 4 degrees the anti-ventilation plate will NOT sit parallel to the bottom of the boat (so that answers one question).

[url="http://boatinfo.no/lib/honda/manuals/riguide.html#/0"]Installation Manual[/url]

I also discovered on Pg. 2-6 that you apparently have the "large" stern bracket (mounting bracket) because your model # has "XH" in it where as David's motor is the "small" bracket (the "XH" indicates extra long shaft and tiller steering -- "L" is the type of tiller handle you have -- the "T" in your model # indicates you have electric tilt/trim -- I think the "S" is for electric start -- No clue what the "DK" stands for). Looking at your pictures and the diagram in this manual confirms it.

I also noticed in your pictures that you don't have any bolts in the bottom part of your stern/mounting bracket. According to the installation manual Pg. 2-6/7 you are supposed to have four bolts holding the motor to the stern.

I also read in one of the above manuals that for sailboats the anti-ventilation plate should be a minimum of 4" below the bottom of the boat.

I also just found a note on Pg. 31 of the Owners Manual that states there are 4 transom angle adjustment positions. The 1st three positions are controlled by the trim adjusting rod (the one you removed in your pictures) and the 4th is controlled by the stern/mounting bracket. To use the 4th position you have to remove the trim adjusting rod (what you did before taking the pictures), then lower the motor down to the stern/mounting bracket stop position which is where it is in your pictures (the tabs I referred to in earlier posts stop it from going in any farther). The 4th position is to be used ONLY when the motor is in storage, not for everyday use!

Taking all of the above into consideration you're going to have to either use wedges or a bracket like David Crosby's to fix the problem. Personally, I'd use the bracket. I think in the long run it will be the best solution to your problem.

Edited by - GaryB on 09/01/2013 00:53:22

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/01/2013 : 06:02:37

Proof once again of the sage advice - RTFM. But before that, make sure you have the right one. Gary may not have the exact right manual (because of the slight discrepancy in model numbers), but it sounds like it may be close enough.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/01/2013 : 08:42:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 Proof once again of the sage advice - RTFM. But before that, make sure you have the right one. Gary may not have the exact right manual (because of the slight discrepancy in model numbers), but it sounds like it may be close enough.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm definitely not sure I have the right manual.

What is RTFM? Can't figure this one out.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/01/2013 : 08:46:57

read the friendly manual

GIYF

Edited by - TakeFive on 09/01/2013 08:49:37

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2013 : 09:33:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">GIYF

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You can google that one.

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