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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Capri 25 Specific Forum

Heel or Flat?

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GrapeTX
1st Mate

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28 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/09/2013 : 11:16:09

I have read everyone saying the Capri 25 like to sail flat but I am not finding that on my Capri 25. I have very neutral helm and the boat just seems to point much higher with induced heeling than sailing flat, and I am not giving up any speed.

I have only been racing the boat since March so there is lots to learn still but this is getting to be more of a question mark for me. The Capri 22 with their gel-coat bottoms and new sails are staying right with us on straight lines and I am curious if that is to be expected. My sails are not new but they are not bags either so I don't know how much reliance I want to put into the sails being the difference. My bottom is not smooth but it is not rough either.

New Owner of Hull 70

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2013 : 11:58:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GrapeTX
 The Capri 22 with their gel-coat bottoms and new sails are staying right with us on straight lines and I am curious if that is to be expected.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, you should sail faster. I always love "racing" my Catalina 25 against Catalina 30's that I encounter on the bay that have either old sails, rough bottoms, or poor attention paid to sail trim and boat speed. Otherwise, the bigger boat goes faster!

How do you do with other 25 foot boats in your racing experience this year?

Edited by - on

GrapeTX
1st Mate

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28 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2013 : 18:34:09

I am racing against a Wavelength 24 that is super fast and not on my radar to try and compete against yet, a J22 that is fairly comparable in PHRF and we sail very close to each other consistently, and the two Capri 22's that are usually there with us boat for boat.

I am going to pull the boat out this winter and take off the bottom paint but I cannot see that making up the difference in the capri 22's. I sail the headsail tell tales futtering up slightly and the top main tale flying about 50%.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2013 : 04:13:38

NO NOT FLAT! that is the worst piece of information I've received from people about how to sail the Capri 25, I've perpetuated that myth, and people who talk about maximum heel angle don't race!

Go FAST, whatever FAST is!
Get a knotmeter or GPS, it'll help.
Regardless of which Capri 22 it is (tall rig fin keel being fastest), the Capri 25 should be faster!

Here's what I've noticed:
Get some people on the low side in super light air, to get around 10 degrees of heel to hold the sails shape.
As winds come up, keep that 10 degrees by scrambling crew (as available) to keep at 10 degrees of heel.
OK, as you start to become powered up... get some people on the rail for sure, but until about 30 degrees (when the rail starts to drag), you are sailing plenty fast... 25 is pushing the limits, 30 is probably over the limit, but again, watch the knotmeter, not the inclinometer.

The indicator of sailing fast (besides watching a knotmeter which takes too long to figure out and assumes you have stable wind, we NEVER do)... is helm pressure! The Capri 25 is tricky. The tiller is long, and rudder is big. So It'll allow you to steer down even at 30 degrees of heel! What you are looking for is excessive tiller pressure.. if you are 5-10 degrees off on the tiller you are likely still fast, any more than that, if you are struggling to keep the boat pointed (2 hands on the tiller) or you find yourself pulling the tiller past the seat on the sweep... then you are overpowered! Drop that traveler, see if it corrects (lower mainsail should take tiller pressure off)... if the traveler is all the way down, and you are still fighting tiller? you need to snug on your vang! and pull the car up so you can reach the mainsheet... now you are playing the mainsheet to depower. With winds coming up that much, and you that overpowered, you need to get crew forward and stern out of the water, and also you should be adding twist to the genoa... bring the genoa cars back some (just a little, see what works, again, watch speed).

Ok we just won our race last Sunday, so I practice what I preach... we had winds 12-16 gusts to 25 (this is typically when the S2s rule, so we are usually licking our wounds in these conditions), and ran full main and full 155... we saw 20-35 degrees of heel... 35 was water washing the deck (and usually happened while we didn't anticipate a puff), 30 degrees we were gunning down an S2, 25 was better than 30 of heel... a well sailed J/22 was in our rear view (WAY in our rear view)... we were gunning for a well sailed J/24 and were able to yo yo with them some, and were able to keep an S2 7.9 at bay for half the race (3 other S2 7.9s in our rear view). The S2s love winds more than the Capri 25... the Capri 25 needs crew weight (5), we were only 3 up, so we should have been pasted in this race.

I've never had to sail against a Wavelength 24 (I think it's a pretty boat though), but my math shows it faster than an S2, and faster than a J/24, and nearly as fast as a B25... so you should likely never be able to catch them EXCEPT!!!! when you throw the spinnaker (just noted the wavelength is also a masthead rig, and likely can match speed with you downwind ugh0! If you can get a good straight downwind run, throw a full sized symmetrical spinnaker. Because you are a masthead rig, and the J dimension is large for such a small boat, the spinnaker is ACREAGE on the Capri! If you fly it, you should be faster than most of the same LOA boats! Only a Melges or Ultimate might walk away from you (correction I think the wavelenth will be as fast)! We've had terrible spinnaker handling to date, and every time we've launched, we've gone from 2-3 place to dead last while we botched our launch, UNTIL, we've filled it and crushed them all! It's that powerful! I am talking losing 20-30 boatlengths because of our screwups, and making all that up and passing the leaders. The Spinnaker can change people's opinion of how fast you are.

Now what you aren't gonna wanna ,hear...
Your bottom needs to be fair (not mostly flat, but fair). It'll cost you as much as a knot of speed if it's not (look at my photo gallery, I've lived in your shoes - last season).
Use the templates recommended on this site to figure out chord lengths as well (it should be within spec if it's totally out, consider keel templates). Shoot for shortest chord lengths, thinner is faster upwind. Fatter keels will get you powered up faster but this boat does fine in light air, so that's usually not a problem.

Now sails... It's true you can use older dacron and this boat has enough tweaks to shape them.. but nothing beats a properly taut crisp sail. I attribute MOST of my speed to epsails this season... Harry is cool to deal with, and his sails are an awesome sight to behold. I'll be calling him again this season for a number 2 (and maybe a new spinnaker - mines 30). He offers discounts to this fleet for ordering from him, and you can get 20-25% off their loadpath prices depending on how many sails are ordered (Wayzata yacht club orders enough sails to help us reach that 20%).

You really should be walking away from a Capri 22 even well sailed they should be history. The j/22 is trickier especially in light air. Sounds like they are using a fair hull, and new sails to keep pace with you.

Feel free to grill me with questions here, or in email shnool @ yahoo.

I want more Capri 25s to crush around the world, in handicapped racing. I think these are a severely underestimated boat.

Edited by - shnool on 09/10/2013 04:24:52

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2013 : 09:05:11

Forgot to mention we sail with headsail teltales streaming, prefer, top middle and bottom straight back, both sides... I get why you'd want them lifting a bit, and while pinching we'll play some games, but ultimately we are after power+point. We'll crack off a bit from ultimate point until speed is up, then point... I might feather if I'm attempting to work my way to a mark... but those are exceptions.

For mainsail, I run bottom 3 streaming, top one lifted a bit (ideally).

Edited by - on

GrapeTX
1st Mate

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28 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2013 : 18:28:17

Thanks for the information John. I am glad to hear I do not need to fight instincts to sail the boat to its potential. I plan to undertake a similar project like yours this winter and while I still have lots of skills to improve I am sure the improvements below the water line will make the skill improvements come quiccker. I am considering a new main but we only have two big regattas each year and I would hate to wear out a new main on series racing.

Another problem I am having is not being able to stop the boats momentum when tacking in very light air. This weekend I had a beautiful port start in floater conditions and left the fleet behind trying to get to the line. Then I tacked and the boat slowly continued turning till I was sailing right back to the start line. This happens frequently in these really light winds and I have tried low weight, sheets eased, sheets in, and shifting weight back to windward without a fix.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2013 : 03:48:15

In the real drifters, 0-2mph winds... waves can knock you for a loop! Get crew dead center, and heel the boat no more than 5-10 degrees. Steer REALLY SLOW! It's critical if you drop below 1 knot in speed to only move the tiller VERY LITTLE. Keep in mind the rudder is huge on this boat, a tiny angle diversion from straight is like a brake on this.

Sadly the boat is so light is blows off point easily when it's that dead.

Drop traveler, ease mainsheet, and the boat should stop "spinning on it's keel." You almost have to roll-tack the boat as well (not a J/24 roll tack mind you, but enough rock through it, so less steering is necessary), crew and skipper go high side, start tack, and halfway through the tack, sails roll around everyone rolls to high side again to stop the boats spinning.. then everyone comes back to balance the boat to 5 degrees to leeward. If you do that then steering off is only about 5-10 degrees, so less drag, and less lost momentum. If you get really good at it, you can use this for ALL your tacks.

We've found we're the only boat that moves in the REALLY light stuff. however, crew movement, and waves can take away any advantage. Scary thing is the wave action can be mitigated with more crew weight (counter intuitive isn't it?). We're faster light though. In those conditions I'm chasing pockets of ripples on the water. I hate bob and bake though.

Consider a nice dacron race main, it'll be usable all year long, hold up for years, and can stay on the boom. For the record (and this isn't really the best plan)... I store my loadpath main on my boom, under cover. It's rolled, and I've never felt it was getting too hot, or too wet, but even on our hottest days we rarely see above 80 degrees. Key is don't stow it wet. But in TX I'd not try that.

Edited by - shnool on 09/12/2013 05:52:01

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 19:25:15

Flatter is faster? um NO!

How about at 26 degrees!

Close reach in 12-14, gusts to 21. Tonight, sailing solo, in cool air, and not a soul in sight.

Edited by - shnool on 09/16/2013 19:27:35

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 19:29:06

Yeah my boat is REALLY dirty... the splotches though are "repairs." I am prepping the boat to be kiwi-gripped (in the winter - heheehh)...

The boat rounds up nicely at about 38 degrees though.. But I can still steer down at 34... heheheh... Yeah just messing around this evening. The genoa fills with water at about 30 on a reach.

Edited by - shnool on 09/16/2013 19:35:29

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2013 : 20:32:39

IMO Flat in a sloop is S-L-O-W!!
Not sure of the optimum angle in Capris but 17% works well in boats from Thistles to J-35's to Fres 41's.
On the 35's we sent the crew below in light air to sit on the leward side and low. In extremly light air one or two would lie on the rails on the leward side trying not to disturb the sails.
You might want to reference "Sail Power " by Ross or the "North U Fast Course " and look up "wetted surface".

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 03:14:33

It's my contention that "optimum angle" is a mis-nomer. I've heard it thrown around by many, but it's highly subjective. Certainly it's a no brainer that there is DRAG... and if you heel until you have GEAR in the water, you have tons of drag. Also there is wetted surface (as you heel, wetted surface increases, which means drag increases, but SO does waterline! to a point).

The point "optimum heel" is trying to achieve, is the point where waterline ceases to increase, so therefore ONLY drag increases with angle. I submit that that angle is easier to "feel" than to look at a inclinometer. Feel it in your tiller, hear it in your rudder! You can HEAR drag. Your wake sounds different when you change the way the boat sails in the water.

17 degrees is a first. But I've been faster than others at 25 degrees. I've also been slower. It also depends on the air pressure, and water conditions. People get stuck on numbers. Listen and feel the effects of drag, sail faster (if you have to watch numbers watch your knotmeter for speed).

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 17:48:27

The bottom of my boat is so dirty I could gain speed by sailing at 60 or 70 degrees!

Edited by - GaryB on 09/17/2013 19:21:12

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