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Netbook,Notebook,Tablet ??

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2014 : 22:57:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 ...Keep us in the loop, I'd like to have something like this in the cockpit also.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I found something interesting looking online tonight. The Leonovo Miix2 has gotten some pretty good reviews. It's an 8" tablet with an extremely bright screen, which as I've said before is extremely important to me since I would use this in the cockpit. As an added bonus, it happens to have a built-in GPS chip. Even though I plan to pull in GPS and AIS from my boat via Bluetooth, that internal chip could make this a free-standing navigational tool, and useful for others who don't have my setup. Apparently there is 3rd party software appearing that takes the internal GPS data and emulates a COM port, which overcomes the problem of legacy Windows software accessing the internal GPS.

There are also non-glare (matte finish) screen protectors available for it.

I could see this being a really great navigational tool on a boat. All the benefits of a handheld GPS, but an 8" diagonal screen that could compete with the best chartplotters.

There are 10" and 11" versions coming out soon also in a couple of months. But not sure how bright the bigger screens will be.

http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/tablets/lenovo-miix-2.aspx

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F2ENTYI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2NCNRDBKE39UL&coliid=ITP4LSHQEJPUA

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 01/21/2014 : 18:57:36

I've played with this Leonovo Miix 2 8" tablet for the a little over a week. The display is stunningly rich and bright, performance very snappy (this new Atom processor is far better than the prior ones). Overall, a joy to use.

The Miix 2 definitely has an internal GPS chip (don't believe the many Internet posts that claim it does not), but in order to make it work with traditional PC software (as opposed to Metro tablet apps) you need to run a free little program that you can get [url="https://bitbucket.org/petrsimon/geolocationtcp/downloads"]here[/url].

This tablet can be found on sale for $250, and with the free app, a free chartplotter program like OpenCPN, a willingness to download the NOAA charts from the government's website, and a willingness to figure out the program enough to show it where the charts are located, you can have a daylight viewable portable GPS with an 8" display, plus the ability to run tablet apps and Windows programs. You'll need a little creativity if you need waterproof, since there aren't custom fit cases for it like there are for iPads. But the display brightness on this is a lot brighter.

It's worth a look.

Edited by - TakeFive on 01/21/2014 18:59:32

glivs
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/10/2014 : 05:01:34

Rick....am planning to add a Garmin 18x puck to my radio and am reviewing your approach (well done btw) to decide how best to proceed. Hard wiring would be straight forward but bluetooth capability would be nice. My needs are simpler than yours but I have a couple of questions regarding your approach, e.g. the "shunt" used in configuring the GPS. A quick phone call would be most efficient if possible; otherwise we could pursue this offline. Let me know; my contact is g l i v s at c o m c a s t . n e t. Thanks.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 02/14/2014 : 11:20:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by glivs
 Rick....am planning to add a Garmin 18x puck to my radio and am reviewing your approach (well done btw) to decide how best to proceed. Hard wiring would be straight forward but bluetooth capability would be nice. My needs are simpler than yours but I have a couple of questions regarding your approach, e.g. the "shunt" used in configuring the GPS. A quick phone call would be most efficient if possible; otherwise we could pursue this offline. Let me know; my contact is g l i v s at c o m c a s t . n e t. Thanks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Gerry,

While I await your call, here are a couple things to get you going.

Quick explanation of the shunt:

It is simply a RJ45 connector with a wire connecting pin 1 to pin 3

To use it, you disconnect the autopilot wire (if you have one) from the RJ45 box, and plug in the shunt in there or to another available socket. This enables you to send commands directly to the GPS puck to do firmware updates and configure things like baud rate, NMEA sentence selection, etc. On your computer you can use a terminal emulator, or Garmin has a GUI configuration utility available for download [url="https://buy.garmin.com/shop/store/downloadsUpdates.jsp?product=010-00321-31&cID=158&pID=27594&ra=true"]here[/url]. This software only works if you have a genuine Garmin 18xLVC GPS.

As I recall, with the shunt in place you can make the connection to the GPS puck from your laptop via Bluetooth, or you can remove the Bluetooth transmitter and use a USB-serial adapter to wire up to the box on the RS232 port.

Do be warned that if you change the baud rate of the GPS, your communications link will immediately break until you change the baud rate of everything else to match it (BT transmitter, COM port in Windows Device Manager, baud setting in your terminal emulator, etc.)

[url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electronics/71615-sending-gx2150-ais-nmea-data-chart-plotter-over-bluetooth.html#post699309"]This link[/url] has a lot of info on my design. "Plan F" is the design that I am still using.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2014 : 16:46:47

I have been considering getting an IPAD for quite some time but either I had not convinced myself of enough reasons to make the plunge or...the stars were just not aligned for me to make the move.

Well...the stars are apparently starting to align...this April !!
First, besides whatever benefits all come up with getting a tablet, one thing for me is that I get a jump on checking things online while watching TV downstairs vs getting on the PC just before going to bed and wind up hitting the sack really late. So, I was considering getting a bluetooth IPAD Air or Mini w/retina screen.

Then, as others have discussed above, using it sometimes (or a lot) for chartplotting. So, even though I have a handheld Magellan, chalk up one addl reason to potentially get an IPAD !

We are going with another couple on a Scandanavian cruise this summer but before the cruise, my wife and I are heading over to Norway for a few days to explore the norwegian fjords region. It just so happens I read an article in Practical Sailor that had a chartplot of a norwegian fjord cruise/hike in which they used a Bad Elf (greater GPS accuracy) linked with a bluetooth tablet and that got me thinking of why not get the Bluetooth IPAD MINI and a Bad Elf for greater GPS accuracy (vs an IPAD w/4G which you can use the built-in GPS that comes with the 4G chip but without paying for a 4G service) and then save the journeys on both the fjord cruising/hiking, the scandanavian cruise/excursions. Okay - Now this is another potential benefit.

Finally and the biggy ! My spouse says...."You know you have a big BDay coming this April, you will be 65. Maybe I and the kids (both married) will chip in and get you an IPAD. Just that you need to pick it out so we get you the right one."

Wow - The stars are definitely aligned !!

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/14/2014 16:51:46

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/14/2014 : 18:44:11

Larry, just to play devils advocate for a second, I was disappointed by the lack of depth in Practical Sailor's review of the Bad Elf Pro. They seemed to repeat the common misconceptions about internal GPSs requiring cell tower assistance (they don't), and inability to get satellite information (I would be very surprised if there wasn't "an app for that" to extract that info, but I haven't personally looked).

I would give the review more credence if they actually did some objective testing of times to get a fix (didn't they have a stopwatch?), and accuracy of the fix (can be calculated from the satellite data). Instead, they seemed to just repeat the usual marketing/press release fluffery provided by the manufacturer.

In my experience, the only delay getting a fix is when you first turn a device on, and even then it's only noticeable if you've moved to a significantly different location from where it was turned off. (Our Auto GPS once took over 10 minutes to get an initial fix when we flew from Philly to St. John USVI.) Otherwise, the cell tower assistance is unnecessary.

IMO, devices like the Bad Elf are a "buyers remorse cure" for people who already have sunk their money into a Wifi-only iPad. But for those who haven't bought one yet, my recommendation would be to spend the extra money on the 3G/4G iPad to get the internal GPS chip. I suspect you'll be much happier having it integrated into the tablet than hanging a non-waterproof Easter egg around your neck all the time. It works perfectly fine without having to pay any monthly fees for mobile data. And you can also sign up for 200MB/month of free mobile data for it from T-mobile (even if you didn't buy it from T-mobile).

However, I do speak from only limited experience. My son bought my wife and me the iPad 3G a year ago, and my only experience on it has been with Garmin Bluecharts down in the BVI last year. We had no mobile plan, and it was getting GPS fixes perfectly fine. Screen brightness was a bit limited in the cockpit, but with shade under the bimini it was viewable. I haven't used it much since, because I much prefer seeing real NOAA charts on my chartplotters, so I prefer OpenCPN in a Windows environment. That's a matter of personal preference. Nobody ever regretted getting an iPad.

Edited by - TakeFive on 02/14/2014 18:52:23

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/15/2014 : 07:36:44

Your points are well taken and not by just you. I have read many reviews of the Bad Elf and pro/con of going with a 4G tablet vs bluetooth tablet with a Bad Elf or similar device. There are more things to consider than just getting a bluetooth tablet working w/GPS. Having not bought a tablet yet, I can bide my time a little longer before making the decision which way to go...and so I am also not biased to either method with or without a Bad Elf, with or without GPS built in to tablet....and could go either way but I'm leaning toward a bluetooth tablet. Here's why:

I have no plans to buy a tablet for cell/internet wireless capability. A monthly fee for that benefit is not going to happen. It is not a necessity for me. If I need to send or receive an EMail, my office Blackberry does that just fine. But I want an IPAD. I do not want a different tablet. So, the decision comes down to buying a 4G IPAD just to have the benefit of a GPS chip that I probably would not even need all that much on the boat anyway considering I have a Magellan handheld and I only really would benefit from the chartplotting when I have a day or weekend to go way down river which happens rarely. The other option is to get a Bluetooth IPAD and save over $100 and then if I really want to fool around with chartplotting, etc then buy a Bad Elf or similar which is going for less dough than what I save going for the bluetooth vs 4G tablet but call that a wash.

The Bad Elf is not so fantastic that all tablet owners should go buy one. But...I can see it's benefits. First, it is made to mostly work with Apple products, so right now not that much benefit unless you go the Apple route. From all I have read, it is a more accurate GPS than what is generally provided in tablets but my thought is that the accuracy difference for many would not be all that noitceable especially if in coastal waters/rivers. If you are in the cabin, I doubt the tablet GPS is going to work that well. With the Bad Elf, you can leave it in the cockpit and the tablet chartplotting will work just fine in a cabin out of the sunshine. Not that one would always use their tablet in the cabin but it's an option with no drawbacks. The other thing is that the tablet does not have to be on for saving GPS data points with a Bad Elf. For example, one may know certain waters pretty well but wants to preserve perhaps for reviewing later his sailing route. The tablet can for the first leg of the journey be turned off conserving battery power while the Bad Elf is on and it's batteries last many times longer than the tablets batterries. At some point later in the sailing journey, the tablet can then be turnd on and chartplotting resumed. The Bad Elf has meanwhile saved all data points from the beginning of the journey. Take this one step further, if you are on a hiking trip, you can head out with the Bad Elf on, then much later on the hike, check your location when you turn on your tablet. The Bad Elf will plot the entire route.

So, the Bad Elf may conserve a tablet's power somewhat since the Bad Elf's batteries last a lot longer and the tablet does not have to work overtime running the screen and also power drain for GPSing....but you could hook up your tablet to your boat's battery. It can allow use of the tablet chartplotting inside a cabin but...most would want to view the chartplotting from the cockpit. You can turn off the tablet, save power drain while the Bad Elf saves route data points, then turn the tablet on when you most need it for waters not as familiar with and the data from the beginning is still saved. On a hike, the tablet does not have to be continually on, the Bad Elf will save the data and then use the tablet only sporadically to get you back to the beginning. Then there is the thing about GPS accuracy......from what I have read the story goes like this: The tablet GPS is fine but the Bad Elf is more accurate. Probably one would be happy with whatever theyhave as long as it can chartplot.

I stll have 1 1/2 months before I decide one way or the other. If you have any good articles to read regarding the options, let me know.

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/15/2014 07:40:52

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 02/15/2014 : 16:10:11

We've gone the Bad Elf route for the last two summers using a, far to tiny, IPod Touch which is now replaced by an iPad mini. Both are powered by the main battery

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/15/2014 : 22:22:33

Looking at the Bad Elf website, they make a number of similar products with some of their GPSs plugged into the tablet using the tablet as it's battery source. Their GPS Pro model has it's own rechargeable battery and is not attached to the tablet. It communicates wirelessly with the tablet.

I visited an Apple store in one of our Malls today to try out the IPAD Air and IPAD Mini. Basically larger viewing screen vs smaller carrying footprint and $130 separating the two excluding the cell and memory size options. I am leaning toward the IPAD Mini and probably the WI-FI only Model.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 02/15/2014 : 22:52:57

There's no one answer that's right for everyone, so I'm not going to tell you what to do.

But just a quick point:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...I have no plans to buy a tablet for cell/internet wireless capability. A monthly fee for that benefit is not going to happen...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Neither did we. Our son bought us the 3G version simply because it had the GPS chip. We have no desire to get hooked into monthly fees.

But the T-mobile free data for life is potentially a game changer. We got a SIM card and registered with them just to have it there in case of an unanticipated need to pull down a chart update or a GRIB file, or to reinstall an app, while out of WiFi range. We don't come close to 200MB/month, but we're glad that we have it just in case, especially since it's 100% free. The phone is fine for most things, but the way Apple tightly controls access to content, sometimes you need to make a mobile connection to get to something (unlike Android, where you have all sorts of sideloading options to transfer device-to-device without a mobile connection).

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/16/2014 : 07:27:50

T-Mobile free data...I know you mentioned it before but I did not really take note of it. I'll check out their website.

The thing is...I probably should not have even butted in on this topic since my needs are so minimal in regards to all the new toys out there...even what others consider a necessity such as a Smart phone...not me. Back in the days prior to getting a Blackberry from my office, I had no cell phone. As it is, my wife rarely turns her cell phone on unless she needs to use it or is expecting a phone call. My need for a tablet....well I really have no need and so uses such as on my boat for river sailing....is something I may never even use it for but it's "a" reason to put on the list as an excuse to buying a tablet. My uses probably would be mostly to store photos, songs and a few movies and then allow me to access the internet downstairs while watching TV or relaxing. So, I really do not want to detour any discussion away from what is probably a wise choice for many which is to get an IPAD w/the GPS chip for using as a chartplotter.

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/16/2014 07:29:20

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 02/16/2014 : 13:15:25

I share your skepticism about tablets. They're mostly for consuming information, not creating it, and I tend to do a lot more creation, so I use computers instead of tablets.

My son bought us the iPad because he's living out west and he wanted to do Facetime with us. We do videoconferencing with him at least weekly, and it works very nicely for that. Very high quality video over our WiFi.

As I hinted before, one thing I don't like about Apple is the way they restrict control over the data in their devices. It leaves them in a position of power to take vendettas against people they don't like, such as Adobe. It also can prevent you from getting access to free content and custom software. For this reason, I prefer Android and Windows.

Before jumping off into an iPad, you might consider Android and/or Windows 8 tablets. There are 8" Win8 tablets from Lenovo, Toshiba, and Asus that have built-in GPS, but not 3G, for $250-$300 price range. My Lenovo Miix2 8" has a bright enough screen for cockpit use, and also has had no problems getting GPS down in my cabin with its internal GPS. If you're interested in trying them out, Microsoft Store or Best Buy usually have multiple models available to try.

I don't want to make you regret bringing this up here, I'm just giving you all your options. Most everyone is thrilled with the iPad, and my wife loves it, but for my uses Win8 gave me compatibility with existing software that I like, and more flexibility to do creation instead of consumption.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/04/2014 : 16:44:34

If anyone is interested in the Miix 2 8" tablet, I just got a notice that its price has dropped to $200 on Amazon. With internal GPS, it can make a really great 8" handheld chartplotter if you're willing to download/install free software and free NOAA charts.

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Edited by - TakeFive on 03/04/2014 16:45:07

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/06/2014 : 11:30:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 

As I hinted before, one thing I don't like about Apple is the way they restrict control over the data in their devices. It leaves them in a position of power to take vendettas against people they don't like, such as Adobe. It also can prevent you from getting access to free content and custom software. For this reason, I prefer Android and Windows.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There you have the Rubicon, Apple maintains control of its technosphere and Windows has 20 updates a week, I chose Apple.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/06/2014 : 22:42:04

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/07/2014 : 04:59:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]... and without Jobs, I doubt they'll find "the next big thing" to save themselves.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As an Apple guy, I am afraid this is a very accurate statement.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 03/07/2014 : 05:52:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember ...Apple maintains control of its technosphere and Windows has 20 updates a week, I chose Apple.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think that is an exaggeration. Even with daily virus updates (which happen totally in the background), it is much less than that.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 
I consider my iPhone and iPad to be slick, but they also exasperate me. Example: no Flash support (for which Apple's excuses are pathetic). Another: data management--just let me put stuff where I want, as I want. Android and Windows are closing in on Apple, and without Jobs, I doubt they'll find "the next big thing" to save themselves.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you read Walter Isaacson's "Jobs," it is clear that Apple has a vendetta against Adobe.

I see this whole thing playing out just like the Mac vs. Windows battles of the mid '90s. Apples's total control of both software design and hardware manufacturing forces a uniformity that is initially appealing to users. The openness of the competing platforms initially results in a lot of non-uniformity of the interface, so Apple zooms ahead. But over time, Apple's excessive control eventually alienates the 3rd party developers, and the non-uniformity issues work themselves out among the competitors as they agree on some de facto open standards. So as the products mature (tablets and phones, in this case), the 3rd party innovation moves away from Apple and to the competition. Obviously there's more to it, such as the emergence of cross-platform development tools, but you get the idea from this.

That's exactly what happened in the '90s, and it is what is happening now with iOS vs. Android and Win8 on tablets and phones.

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/07/2014 06:10:23

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 03/07/2014 : 10:37:11

I acknowledge the debates for/against Apple....but after all of this...my spouse indicated the time is approaching for me to decide what I want for my 65th April Bday... I told her I want the IPAD Mini w/Retina Screen, not the 3G/4G model but w/32GB Memory. My uses are light....probably for portable watching of a movie and accessing the internet from within the house or near a free internet area. Even if I were to use it for chartplotting, it would probably be more to experiment with than actual benefit since I am on a river, know the terrain for 90% of my sailing and when I do venture far south on the river, I have a Magellan GPS that has been fine for locating the bouys and shallow waters.

If I do get the IPAD MINI, so what is the best chartplotter app that strikes a good balance between cost and versatility ...or just go by Practical sailor recommendations based on their recent articles on Aps ? Also, anyone know what Practical Sailor Mag used for their article awhile ago that reviewed apps & the Bad Elf but had a map/chart that showed hiking/sailing down one of the norwegian fjords ? if not expensive, I am curious as to what it would cost to load an app that covered the fjords and also the sailing routes of the big boats on the scandanavian cruises to all the ports along the Baltic Sea since that is exactly what we are going on this summer - 4 days in the fjord area followed by the cruise to the most popular ports. May be nice to chartplot it but not if it costs a lot for a one time use. if expensive....then I will just look at a map and imagine the chartplotting !! LOL

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/07/2014 : 11:07:03

For we real Apple people it is the integration and uniformity across all products that keeps us loyal. Apple make products for consumers and many of us will consume whatever they make because we know it will work... pretty much forever. I am waiting on the next iteration of Apple TV and will buy it regardless of what else is out there. It will be compatible with my Apple router which is 802.11 ac as is my iMac. If I were buying another iPad, I have an iPad 2 that does little more than run TV Guide and broadcast music to various places around the house, I would wait for an 802.11 ac version to help with streaming speeds, the world is just beginning streaming and throughput will be very important.
Wiki: IEEE 802.11ac is a wireless computer networking standard in the 802.11 family (which is marketed under the brand name Wi-Fi), developed in the IEEE Standards Association process,[1] providing high-throughput wireless local area networks (WLANs) on the 5 GHz band.[1] The standard was developed from 2011 through 2013 and approved in January 2014.[1][2] According to a study, devices with the 802.11ac specification are expected to be common by 2015 with an estimated one billion spread around the world.[3]
This specification has expected multi-station WLAN throughput of at least 1 gigabit per second and a single link throughput of at least 500 megabits per second (500 Mbit/s). This is accomplished by extending the air interface concepts embraced by 802.11n: wider RF bandwidth (up to 160 MHz), more MIMO spatial streams (up to 8), multi-user MIMO, and high-density modulation (up to 256-QAM).[4]

I often recommend other platforms for friends and in the chartplotter world Apple may not be the answer but it is a lovely technosphere to be in when their products meet your needs.

Edited by - pastmember on 03/07/2014 12:08:00

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/07/2014 : 11:19:43

As for the evil empire of ADOBE, man if you understand their corporate history you cannot be a fan. I have been to their main office back in the day when I was in the Apple tech industry and their arrogance was amazing. Did you like what early laser printers cost? Do you know how much of that was licensing the Post Script fonts from Adobe? The war started when Apple supported TruType fonts to break the strangle hold Adobe had on the printing industry and it has been on ever since. The price of laser printers immediately dropped and desktop publishing became ubiquitous. Don't get me wrong, Apple had an evil empire thing going on for a long time to developers but that was Jobs fault, he was a huge jerk.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/07/2014 : 12:22:21

Just for interest, Adobe is no longer developing Flash. They are still providing updates, but web standards approaches that don't demand as many resources nor suck your battery dry, not to mention security, are the bell toll. The pundits have doomed Apple to failure for decades, but it still remains one of the most profitable companies in the world. They have panned every version of the IPhone, including the first as inadequate and not what the people want. The IPhone has never lead in market share, but IPhones dominate in how much money people spend on services and apps. That is why developers keep developing.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/07/2014 : 13:52:10

Back to the question of IPad nav software. I use INaX. It has some short comings and only uses raster charts, free from NOAA, but it integrates beautifully with MacENC on my computer. There may be better options if you don't use a Mac onboard. You could probably use topo maps from XTraverse, not free, if you’re not on a charted river. The instructions imply that you need an XTraverse account to transfer routes, tracks, and waypoints, but that isn't true. All gps data can be exported via email.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.