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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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We don't need no stinkin' winches…

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/30/2013 : 17:39:53

I have three perfectly good winches on Passage. One holds the jib halyard all coiled up and the other two handle fenders and docklines. My winch handle remains safely ensconced in its rear seat deck locker where David B Stinkpotter put it lo these many years ago.
I raise the main by pulling on the halyard and pull the jib sheets through the cam cleat. Been on some major boats ... needed 'em. But I'm worried they'll freeze up so I spin them while I'm sailing along.
Does a C25 really need them?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 09/30/2013 17:42:09

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 18:05:31

if you never sail in anything over 15 knots true wind... and never use anything but a painter jib, then NO you don't...

If you have a genoa, need it trimmed, and retrimmed for decent performance then you MAY need the winches....

I cross sheet when I am alone, and I am good to about 20 knots. But if I used my winch handle more, my elbow wouldn't be trashed right now. Just saying.

When we had a race that was consistently blowing over 25 knots... we ran a main reefed, and a reefed 130 giving about 90%, I used the heck out of the winch handle. I'd dump the genoa in the gusts, and sheet on in the lulls. Dumping the traveler wasn't enough to depower.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 18:36:30

Sometimes the wenches need the winches.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 19:19:03

Hi Bruce... I'm guessing your immediate PO, Bill (who I sold to), put the handle in the rope locker--I generally kept it in one of the coaming cubbies, and did use it (1) to tension the 130 genny on the furler at the beginning of the season, and (2) to trim the genny the last few inches on a beat in let's say a 12+ breeze. My Admiral did some of the latter, so the handle was helpful. (No doubt you're stronger.) I never felt I needed a winch for the main halyard, which I led to the cockpit--never saw scallops in the luff--but I didn't race Passage.

I never sheeted the genny directly to the cam cleats I installed--I always put at least a turn or two on a winch, and then led the tail under the horn cleat (to lower the lead to the cam cleat) and into the cam. Note the position of the two cams, which allows the sheets to go under a horn of the original cleats. I would worry that going directly to the cam could create tension that could make the cams very difficult to release.

I agree, the C-25 is sort of in the gray area where casual sailors in moderate conditions might not need winch handles, and racers/optimizers will probably use them for fine tuning.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2013 19:27:47

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 19:22:52

I don't race, but I'm with scnool on cross sheeting when singlehanding. Pull it through while crossing the wind and finish off with the handle - easier on old joints. And yes, the wench needs a winch. I'm to old for plurals. .

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 19:54:59

I you don't use winches on halyards and sheets then I would not be happy with your sail shape on my boat. (Unless you are always sailing in under 10 mph true.) But sail shape and trim is pretty much what I am focused on when sailing.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 03:58:52

With cross sheeting, I can lean into my genoa trim, and trim in up to 20 true. It's taking up the slack that hurts the elbow... hehehe. I usually only do this when I solo sail. My crew really hates it when I do it like this even with CREW... but they do it so they can basically do the same. Unlike some other performance boats, my cross sheet coesn't cross the cockpit at a 45 degree, it instead takes a wrap around the leeward winch then one around the windward.

Edited by - shnool on 10/01/2013 04:00:07

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 06:49:46

I used the jib/genoa and halyard winches on our C25 and jib/genoa winches on our C22 every time I sail. Except in very light air, I cross-sheet the genoa sheet when I single-hand the boat.
On the C22 we race, the winches have been moved to the cabin top and 57mm swivel blocks are on the coaming. In light air, I sheet the genoa to the same side winch, usually standing in the companionway. In heavier air, I will cross-sheet so I can stay on the high side of the boat.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 07:59:10

As others have said, you can sail a C25 without winches, but you can't sail it well without winches in stronger winds, and it doesn't really matter how strong you are. If you aren't using winches in strong winds, you can't be trimming your sails very well. My C25 had two-speed winches, and provided even more mechanical advantage than the single-speed winches on most C25s, and I used the lower, more powerful speed regularly, even though I was 6' 2 1/2" and 210 lbs, and quite strong during my heyday. Although there probably are some 25' boats without winches, I can't remember the last time I have seen one, if ever. Keep them. You will eventually appreciate them.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 14:05:05

I have single speed winches and they are used constantly. When trimming the genoa sheets in higher winds, I wish I had a winch handle that was about 3' feet long.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 16:34:28

AND...lest we forget...they're great for breaking up the ice...

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Voyager
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5376 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 18:11:10

That's why I love this forum. Good cross section of opinions and views (and jokes)! I debated with myself whether to post this-glad I did.
My 16 footer had cam cleats only for the jib. And I did use the mast winch to raise the genny on the furler at the start of the season.
I like the idea of wrapping the genny sheets on the winches as Dave suggested.
I rarely sail in conditions in excess of 15 knots breeze.
If I should winch in the jib sheets in stronger conditions, should I also set up lines to control the sheet blocks' position on the gunwale tracks? I usually set 'em and forget 'em. (Horrors!)
Ok - I need to crew with racers and take a sail handling course with USSailing. Can anybody recommend some good winter reading???

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 19:16:10

Actually the Admiral has gotten so good at managing the sheets that she hardly ever has to use the winch handle. When we come about, she releases the old sheet and tensions the new one so fast that it's done before the sail is done luffing. Sometimes the jib is too flat and I need to have her let it out. We'll only use the handle if the wind shifts or I need to change point of sail to clear an obstacle.

Part of the reason it's so easy is that with a 110 the jib comes over very fast, which means the sheets come over quickly also. Easy tacking is important because we do a lot of it on the river.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2013 : 04:40:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 I rarely sail in conditions in excess of 15 knots breeze.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

North of 15 is where the fun starts.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2013 : 05:00:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 Actually the Admiral has gotten so good at managing the sheets that she hardly ever has to use the winch handle. When we come about, she releases the old sheet and tensions the new one so fast that it's done before the sail is done luffing. Sometimes the jib is too flat and I need to have her let it out. We'll only use the handle if the wind shifts or I need to change point of sail to clear an obstacle.

Part of the reason it's so easy is that with a 110 the jib comes over very fast, which means the sheets come over quickly also. Easy tacking is important because we do a lot of it on the river.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's one of the great things about a 110% jib, and it makes the C250 a pleasure to sail. The foot is so short that it only touches the mast lightly during a tack, it doesn't touch the shrouds enough to snag on them, and the jibsheet is much shorter, so you don't have to tail a long genoa jibsheet. When I raced my C25 singlehanded, if the windspeed was decent, I often used my 110, even though the others were using their 150's, because the 110 was so much easier for me to tack. In a short race on a small lake, where you have to tack frequently, ease of sail handling is a huge aid to a singlehander, and, if there was enough wind, it was worth giving up some sail area in order to get good, clean tacks. In addition, the loads on a 110 are much less, and you can get by without using the winches, until the windspeed gets up to the upper range for the 110, and then you need a winch handle to trim it well.

When we are using a 110 on one of the 40 foot racers that I crew on regularly, I can tack the jib in the way you describe, without having to do alot of grinding with the winch handle. I only need the winch handle to fine-trim it, and usually need to be careful to not overtrim it by hand during a tack, even in 15-20 kt winds.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/02/2013 05:13:49

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2013 : 06:27:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 ...If I should winch in the jib sheets in stronger conditions, should I also set up lines to control the sheet blocks' position on the gunwale tracks?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Like a traveler? You're being facetious, right?

Yes, they can be moved back in higher winds (to flatten the bottom and twist off the top), and forward in light air (to power up), but the windward block can be moved easily while under way. A system of adjusting lines would have to eliminate the locking pins--I haven't seen that done.

I found an all-purpose shape I liked, set them, and forgot them.

(When I bought Passage, one was frozen in place.)

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 10/02/2013 : 16:22:26

Dave - a little but I saw an entire article about sheet block travelers and tracks and I was amazed. Maybe on racing rockets but on our boats?? I, like you, leave them be. I have adjusted them before but that was to get the best looking shape in 10 kt conditions.

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TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2013 : 17:57:24

I believe the tackle to adjust jib cars from the cockpit is commercially available. I've seen it in Practical Sailor or maybe on Sailnet. But I think for our size boats it's overkill.

I never used to adjust them, but have done more fine tuning of sail shape the last year or two, particularly if I need more leach or foot tension. I used to tighten the leech and foot lines for this, but I found I can do the same with less cupping by adjusting the car. On the C250 it's easy to adjust by standing on the companionway ladder and reaching forward over the hatch - no need for any special tackle to adjust from the cockpit.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 04:20:20

I did not use the winches on the 150 for the last two days when tacking-today I have sore muscles. I will use them today. I always use cabin top winches for the halyards.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 06:17:25

Normally I sail by the Sails (shape/telltales/luffing, etc.) and 'play' with the cars quite a bit so that I get a more practiced feel for how they change the sail shape. If we had jib car adjustment lines, I might be able to get Peggy to adjust them, but it's a pricey upgrade. As Rick stated, just lean over and move them.

Now if you want to talk Mainsheet traveller, then that is something we are seriously considering.

Paul

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5376 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2013 : 20:16:24

Paul - next time I'm out I will fiddle with the jib sheet cars and check to see whether I can get 0.5 kts more on the GPS.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 05:44:03

[url="http://www.mysailing.com.au/news/barber-haulers"]Barber Hauler[/url]

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 07:25:30

Hah! I was just thinking about something like a twing, but couldn't remember what it was called.

I don't get, from the diagram, how the lower block is adjusted on the athwartship track as alluded to in the text--is it just meant to slide freely? But it seems you could accomplish the main objective without the track--just a block on the forward stanchion base.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/04/2013 07:28:27

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/05/2013 : 08:09:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 [url="http://www.mysailing.com.au/news/barber-haulers"]Barber Hauler[/url]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I started sailing I was a practicing barber and named my first keelboat BarberHauler. She was a sweety, Spirit 23.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2013 : 08:36:05

Frank--do you still have that little Metropolitan?

I'm thinking 1955-56... (?)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/05/2013 08:38:30

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/05/2013 : 09:30:15

No, I sold it long ago. It was the colors of a local high school and it used to pull the large touchdown bell in the homecoming parades. It was great fun.

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