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Sailing with partial genoa

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fmarcelino
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/04/2013 : 07:50:53

This is more of a question for next season, but here it goes...

This whole season I just used my jib when sailing. I also have a 155 genoa that I never even took out of the bag.

I was thinking for next year, to setup my genoa at the start of the season, and only partially unfurl it as needed. So if I want to run it at jib length, I just don't unfurl the whole genoa, but if I need/want the whole thing. Sort of make it a game time decision instead of before I head out.

Is this a good idea? Does it cause too much stress on the setup if I pull a genoa out partially?

Thanks in advance,

Owner 1982 Catalina 25 (Bel Canto), 89 Merc 9.9hp outboard
Read about my sailing adventures on my photo diary at:
https://belcantosailingphotos.shutterfly.com/

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 07:56:01

I do it all the time. The furled portion of the sail can affect the ability to tack but it is an easy way to depower while underway. I am not aware of any harm done to the sail while using this method though you will not be using the optimal cut of the sail as it was designed.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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USA
3460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 08:53:12

I use my 150 Genoa with it completely unfurled about 70% of the time, though, I sometimes leave the marina with it furled to the 100% - 110% Jib size and then evaluate the breeze/gusts when I get closer to or into the Potomac River. I tend to use the Genoa partially furled or down to a jib size more during the winter/early spring time period. As far as sail shape, well if you use it almost always at 100% instead of 150%, it may alter the sail shape but the sail shape is going to change more from just how often you go out each season and how many times it is subjected to heavy breezes.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 09:36:15

New Bedford... Buzzard's Bay... 15 knots of breeze is a calm day, right? My 130 alone, fully deployed, was very nice in those conditions. With no main up, I didn't worry about shortening the genny until probably close to 20, which I rarely sailed in. Actually, I'm not sure I ever reduced the 130 when using it alone. As the wind piped up, I'd reef or douse the main before reducing the 130. I can't speak from experience about a 155.

One thing I suspect you'll find is that the full 155 gives you better helm balance (with slight weather helm) than the 110, and tacks more efficiently (although it's a bit more work to horse it around the mast and haul in the longer sheet). You'll also find the visibility is significantly worse. It should remain reasonably efficient rolled up to about 130%... Rolled to 110%, I suspect you'll find it doesn't perform nearly as well as your 110, but you might rarely need to do that.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/04/2013 09:40:25

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 11:17:40

A 155% rolled to 110% will have a terrible shape with way more belly that a properly cut sail.

If the 155% is made of lighter fabric (suitable for it's size and use in light air) then it will put stress on the sail to roll it up and use it in heavier winds. A heavy big genoa makes little sense, but a lot of them are made.

If you are going to routinely use the sail partially furled then just run the smaller sail as your normal sail. Roller reefing is good for occasional use, but not as good as a properly cut smaller sail.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 12:07:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Roller reefing is good for occasional use, but not as good as a properly cut smaller sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah but you can deploy it about 90% faster with about 10% of the effort. Just saying . . .

Edited by - on

islander
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USA
4023 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 16:05:17

Went out in 28n winds this summer just to see what would happen. Big waves and white caps everywhere. Left the main down and slowly unrolled my 135. Literally got it out to a storm jib size and the boat took off like a rocket. 6.5 to 7.4 steady. Healing around 20 to 30. I have said this before and I will say it again, Who cares about sail shape if the boat is at full throttle. What a ride and experience that day was.

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Captmorgan
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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 17:17:32

I am new to this boat and I have a furled genoa, and that's all I use. It works well. I had to reduce the line thickness on my furler so that it was smooth to roll out and in. Once that was done I just pull it out until I feel the wind over powering the boat and trim in back. I will adjust several times if the wind is changing but if its 10-11 Knots or less I usually let it out all the way. I see what some are saying about sail shape but you can adjust a little with the CAR placement In strong winds pulling the jib sheet car all the way back flattened out the genoa and make it flatter. I also think reefing the main is another good adjustment and having the Mast Gates and the easy reef set up makes that a lot easier. If your search on mast gate youll find that helpful for adjusting sail area too. I don't see myself ever needing a 110 or 100 unless your racing.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 20:53:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 A 155% rolled to 110% will have a terrible shape with way more belly that a properly cut sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Come on, guys... Some people just like to be out on the water under sail, with relatively little drama. Buzzard's Bay is a little like the Great Lakes and Frank Hopper's Kansas Lake put together--wind from the Atlantic with a 10-200 mile fetch depending on the wind direction. Big chop and big air most of the time. On the C-25, for sailing to "nowhere in particular", the least drama is with the headsail alone--adding the main is for "going somewhere" with some probable excitement.

One can graduate from the undramatic to the exciting as they wish. And if the sub-optimal headsail shape moves them at 4.5 - 5 knots, they might not be worried that they're not doing 5.5 - 6.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/04/2013 20:55:56

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 20:58:42

I agree with you I was just saying its not even that bad if you tighten it.

And I would love to get going 5 knots... I mostly find myself at 4.0

Do you find if you sail with the jib alone that you need to Jib around because tacking is more difficult. I am experimenting with one or the other and I find that when I have the Jib only in strong wind its hard to cross the wind.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 10/04/2013 : 22:35:37

My point was that if he will primarily be using reduced sail area that he'll have the best experience just always using the smaller sail.

The sail shape advantages from using a correctly cut smaller sail are reduced heeling, pointing higher, faster speed, and the sail will last longer. Only one of these is a speed thing.

Roller furling is good in a pinch, but it's silly to stick a 150% sail on a boat and normally use it as a 110%.

Edited by - on

Sam001
Vice Commodore

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USA
441 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2013 : 01:31:42

A proper shaped sail does make the boat go fast. And I agree that a head sail only at 6 knots is FUN.
Captmorgan, do a check of your trim, or have someone look at it for you. You should be able to get to 5 kts in good wind and the 6 kts range in good wind. Usually it is the trim. I have a 110 on a roller-furler and it makes life easy! Just saying....

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2013 : 09:13:18

One suggestion under headsail alone is to not try to point to the max, even before a tack. Bear off a little and don't keep the sail board-tight. That should generate more speed that will carry you through the tack, and give you higher speeds (5+) in general. And don't turn too hard or suddenly--the rudder can kill your speed and momentum. With the 110, you can then let the sail backwind momentarily to push the bow through the wind, and release it just after you get past head-to-wind. With the full 155, the sail could contact the spreader and the sheets might get you hung up on the shrouds (?)--backwinding might not be a good idea.

Oh, and is your bottom reasonably free of flora and fauna?

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 10/05/2013 : 10:14:01

Captmorgan,
Since the boat is new to you I am wondering if you have taken a look at how much growth you have on your hull. The reasonn I say is these boats are pretty easy to get to 5 knots and the only time mine would only get to 4 - 4/12 was when I first bought it and the hull had significant growth on it I was unaware of. With a clean hull I can get it to 5 knots on about 8 knots of wind.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2013 : 11:44:05

I'm one of those casual, simple sailors with a 150 on a roller. A 135 would probably be better, but the ease of single handing with my setup more than makes up for progressively worse sail shape as area is reduced. While they should be aware of the effects, I don't think newbies need to get caught up in the details of sail shape. Have fun, read, ask questions, and learn at your own pace to your comfortable level of proficiency.

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cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2013 : 06:26:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 While they should be aware of the effects, I don't think newbies need to get caught up in the details of sail shape. Have fun, read, ask questions, and learn at your own pace to your comfortable level of proficiency.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think that is some of the BEST advice any new sailor can get!

I think the important part is just getting out on the water with your boat! I have owned,raced and cruised sailboats for over 51 years (the last 37 with Confetti), and there are very few days I go out that I do not still learn (or re-learn!) a little something! The more you sail, the more you will find out what type(s) of sailing you have the most fun doing, and what level of proficiency in those areas you want to have. There are a lot of great sailors on this forum, so you will never have a question you can't get all sorts of answers to!! <grin>

Cheers!!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2013 : 08:25:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 While they should be aware of the effects, I don't think newbies need to get caught up in the details of sail shape. Have fun, read, ask questions, and learn at your own pace to your comfortable level of proficiency.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think that is some of the BEST advice any new sailor can get!...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree, and tried to say somewhat the same thing earlier. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...you will never have a question you can't get all sorts of answers to!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and even debates on!

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2013 : 09:21:07

I somewhat disagree. You do not buy a plane and find out later what the flaps do. Sailing is such an unusual set of sensations for most people that if it is not done correctly the newby may think what they are experiencing IS sailing. Sail shape is no different than taking off the emergency brake before driving a new car... no, the way the car drives with the emergency brake on is NOT what the car is suppose to drive like.
Sailing should be learned as a performance REQUIRED activity or you are just bobbing on water and exposed to danger as a result of a lack of control. Sometimes I think a lot of "sailors" should be "sailing" pontoon boats; they would never know the difference.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2013 : 10:37:12

So Frank, before you first went sailing, had you learned how and when to bend the mast, use a Cunningham, flatten a jib, reef the main, and jibe a spinnaker?

Anything less is suboptimal "performance." Or did you pull up a sail and go sailing... and then maybe pull up another sail and go a little faster... and then start learning how to improve on that...

Personally, I started with a lateen rig with two bamboo spars and a canvas sail on a Sailfish (roughly) that I built at around the age of 12-13. I taught myself the points of sail, tacking, jibing, backing out of irons,... not much about sail shape at that point. 40+ years and several sailboats later, we bought a well-used C-25 without a vang. (Horrors!) We enjoyed it, and we weren't just bobbing around. I was planning to add the vang, although other things had higher priorities... I was looking into what I wanted for the boom bail... and then life was turned upside-down and I ended up selling the boat. I know it should have had the vang, but it still took us places and gave us a wonderful time.

How 'bout you? How did you start out?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/06/2013 10:40:47

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/06/2013 : 11:36:00

I had only been on a boat of any kind a couple of times in my life and had never seen a sailboat except on TV.

For me I was in my early 30s and someone took me out as crew on an FJ, he said "change sides when I tell you to and either pull the rope in your hand or let it out ... I will tell you which and when". I liked it so I went home from Lake Hephner in OKC to Wichita and bought a book and a Tanzer 16. I spent several weeks reading the book, I forget which book but it was a good how to sail book. I took the boat to a lake and could not get it away from the dock. I went home and read again and bought more books. Also during this time I bought every sailing magazine I could because if you can understand the advertisements in enthusiast magazines then you will have mastered the vocabulary of the topic. Several weeks later I went to Lake Cheney, and could not get the boat away from the dock. A gentleman asked if he could help and took me out on my boat. After an hour we went back to the dock and after that I could get away from the dock. I next read parts of Ross' Sail Power and that provided the grasp of the dynamics of fluid flow for me and I have been tweeking lines ever since.

Admittedly we are all different creatures and I am an anal guru type, not because I want to be the big shot but because I want to understand what people explain to me and then I can hardly wait to share what I learned... in an understandable way. Part of my position on learning to sail is I want people to be engrossed in all the aspects of it right from the start so every experience is a appreciated and understood to some degree. So, should a newby care about the horrible sail shape of a bagging 150 reefed to 100, I think yes because I don't want them to think the boat is not acting like the other boats around them because of his "failure to grasp" but because he has chosen to set his sails in a way that compromise the design characteristics of the sail plan and it is OK, because he chose to do it. Is it OK to go slow... yes... but only by choice.

On a personal note, my wife and I have been retired for about 18 months now and sometimes she just tells me to shut up.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/06/2013 11:39:37

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 10/06/2013 : 13:31:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fmarcelino
 This is more of a question for next season, but here it goes...

This whole season I just used my jib when sailing. I also have a 155 genoa that I never even took out of the bag.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What are the prevailing winds for your sailing venue?

As roller furling is both a convenience and a compromise, the size of the headsail should be based on the average conditions in your area. If light air is the norm, go with the 155. If the wind is mostly moderate to high, stay with the 110.

Having both a 110 and a 155 furling sails suggests to me these could have been hank on sails that were converted to tape as more often than not, an intermediate headsail, such as a 135, is the sail of choice for furling (not too big and not too small). Additionally, you don't see many 155's on furling rigs. If these were converted, partially furling in the 155 could be problematic.

As to reducing headsail size by furling it in, doing so on my boat results in a balloon looking headsail that is serviceable when sailing off wind, but not what you want for any other point of sail as when the wind pipes up, you want flatter, not fuller.

Regarding knowing the details of sail shape and the sail controls one has available, looking back, I wish I had made that a priority from the beginning as my inattentiveness to what lay beyond simply hoisting a sail and steering the boat probably (read, definitely) contributed to my better half coming to hate sailing. It also nearly led me to abandon sailing altogether after five years, as I had gotten both frustrated and bored with what I thought was sailing, and came this close to joining the ranks of those who quickly get into, then out of, sailing. It wasn't until I decided to learn "what the flaps do" that my passion for sailing was really ignited, but I could kick myself for not doing so from the beginning.

Edited by - on

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2013 : 04:48:55

I think your all saying the same thing with slightly different emphasis (or twist in the sails) , the point is to always care about what your doing and that you're trying to do it well. Safety is a big key here ingnorance could hurt you. However we shouldnt become such a perfectionist that you dont enjoy the sail and its all about attitude and how you treat others on your boat. As a captain on my boat I always try to make sure my crew is learning but smiling.

I can tell you this sailor is not just floating around because he has a fleet of captains willing to share their experiences and knowledge and I get a little better every day because of you and my thirst for doing it better. Yesterday I took friends out and we were in 10-15 knot gusts and I was able to reef and roll to keep them comfortable and enjoying the ride. We even caught some strippers for dinner while trolling at 4 knots!

As a relative newbie (3 years solo- 5 years with casual team racing experience) I was able to keep my crew safe and enjoying a beautiful day on the water. Thanks to all of you.

Joe W I will be pulling the boat in Novemeber and giving it the overall in the winter. Ill be sure to get to 5 knots next year with a clean hull , better sail trim, and 100 more posts on here which is like 50 hours on the water.

John

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2013 : 07:03:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captmorgan
 ...We even caught some strippers for dinner while trolling...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Trolling for strippers... That takes me back! How much did the "dinner" cost you?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/07/2013 07:04:38

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2013 : 18:03:09

Actually the sailing cost me money the fishing was free :)

I think I lost 4 lures early that year and released a whole bunch before Oct 1st so Ill keep my day job and just sail, and when its calm enough throw out a line and wait. then when I hook one practice the man overboard drill :)

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2013 : 19:10:31

(Maybe I was too subtle, or it wasn't funny.

)

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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2013 : 21:42:40

Here in the SF area one has to be especially careful when trolling; the strippers aren't always what they appear to be. Out on the Bay, however, the stripers always provide some fun!

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