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Reefer Madness

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Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/11/2013 : 19:03:03

We were out in 15-20 knot winds the other day I had to reef the main. I really like the easy reef system and Once I have my mast gates up it will be even easier.

I was able to get the boat going pretty well with a reefed genoa, I had it at about 30 % but I wish I could decrease the main a little more. I managed but can your roll and reef any more if you only have one set of reef grommets. Are there ways to reef more or do you need a sail with more grommets.

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2013 : 19:37:22

You could talk to a sailmaker about installing a second set of reef points. It takes some reinforcing of the sail at the tack and clew. If theses are conditions you expect to encounter, I'd suggest that over rolling down the jib to such an extent--the headsail gives so much more drive with so much less heeling force. Except.......

Some other issues are (1) sail trim, and (2) sail condition. If your main, in particular, cannot be flattened in a breeze, it will heel the boat and not contribute much to its drive. If you don't have or aren't using the controls to flatten it, the same happens, but a "blown out" (bulbous) sail cannot be flattened with any controls. What is the vintage of your sails? If original, well case closed. A new main, in particular, will change everything. A new genoa is probably a second priority to the main.

People like me spend enough on gas in a couple of years to cover a new sail on your boat... Be happy and suit her up properly!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/11/2013 19:38:39

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4023 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2013 : 05:39:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">People like me spend enough on gas in a couple of years to cover a new sail on your boat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Agree totally, Coming from a power boat myself the maintenance and fuel bill is what got me back to sailing. What I used to spend on fuel alone in one season I could easily buy new sails every year for the sailboat. Sailboats are cheap in comparison. Big grin on my face when we pass the fuel dock on our way out,Last look it was $5.09/gal. I will admit that occasionally I miss the point and go of the powerboat.I don't miss looking at the fuel flow meter saying 18gal per hr.

Edited by - islander on 10/12/2013 05:44:49

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2013 : 08:34:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 ...I don't miss looking at the fuel flow meter saying 18gal per hr.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My Honda 225 drinks about 8 gal/hr at 20-25 knot cruise (I estimate), and I've averaged a true 1.9 gph over my seven seasons with Sarge. (That's because I do a lot of 5-6 kt. no-wake miles past the marinas and docks on the Mystic River.) But I can't compete with Passage--except in terms of the ETA.

(I know, I know-- "...you're already there!")

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/12/2013 08:35:19

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2013 : 13:10:41

With good/new sails we found the Catalina 25 tall to sail well in 15-20 knot winds with the main having a single reef and a 110% jib. Going downwind the reef can be shook out.

Flattening the sails will help reduce heel. You can also flatten the foot of the sail and let the upper portion spill wind. On the jib you do this by moving the cars back a notch or two, on the main you would trim the outhaul and ease the vang.

Rolling down your headsail to 30% of it's original size is likely to produce a small but very baggy shaped sail that isn't going to perform very well. It can induce a lot of heel without adding necessary power to get the boat moving. You might try with 30% headsail and no headsail and see if you notice a big difference.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2013 : 06:52:04

Racers commonly use a technique that I think is called a fisherman's reef ( although I did a google search and couldn't find that particular term). It's a very simple way of depowering the mainsail without tucking in a reef. All you do is ease the mainsheet traveler down to leeward until the luff of the mainsail is backwinded by the jib. The part of the sail that is backwinded resembles a bubble. The last foot or so of the leech of the mainsail, however, lies flat, and provides just enough pressure to help drive the boat to windward. The way to trim the sail is to ease the traveler down until a bubble forms in the luff of the sail, the leech is lying down smoothly, and the sail is not fluttering and flapping. If the sail starts flapping, you have eased the traveler too far to leeward. We used that technique yesterday in the Good Old Boat Regatta, sailing with a #2 jib and full mainsail in winds I would estimate to be in the low 20's, and were able to keep the boat on it's feet in the gusts for a first place. If the windspeed had been much higher, we would have been better off to tuck in a single reef.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2013 : 07:11:05

The separation bubble Steve talks about is something I learned years ago while watching the America's Cup back in the era of relatively traditional sailboats. The commentators stated the presence of the bubble itself is not an issue, but it should be uniform as much possible along the luff of the main and not concentrated in any portion of the sail.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2013 : 07:48:34

It would help to have a "real" traveler--preferably with mid-boom sheeting to further increase the effectiveness of the traveler (as on most race-oriented boats). I'm not sure the stock C-25 traveler has enough "travel" for Steve's approach.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/13/2013 07:49:05

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2013 : 09:40:12

It doesn't, but you can approximate the same thing using the vang and mainsheet.

Use the vang to control the leech tension, then using the main sheet to control angle of attack. In this case you'd ease the main sheet until you get the bubble but before the main starts to luff.

On my boat I find it very natural to use the technique that Steve mentions because that also reduces or eliminates weatherhelm. On most boats (including the Catalina 25) weather helm will increase as the boat heels. When you travel down to reduce weather helm you'll probably find that you get that bubble. I always listen for turbulence around the rudder and use that as a reminder to check the weatherhelm. If it is there then I need to ease the main a bit.

Edited by - on

Captmorgan
Navigator

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USA
220 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2013 : 16:43:45

I dont have a boom vang. When the weather is the way it was I dump the traveler leeward and pull the backstay full on, the outhaul tight and the Cunningham down. I also put the cars to the rear to flatten the jib as much as possible.
I still get a little bubble in the main and jib so I think my sails are a little blown out.

Would a boom vang help in these conditions. I think pulling down on the boom would help keep it flat

Today I easy it out some to drop the heel and when I do that it does blow out a little. I have been using twist (with the traveler and tightening things down when the wind picks up.

When the wind is strong and I am pointing close haul I drop the traveler leeward all the way, is this supposed to make the back bubble?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2013 : 06:24:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captmorgan
 I dont have a boom vang. When the weather is the way it was I dump the traveler leeward and pull the backstay full on, the outhaul tight and the Cunningham down. I also put the cars to the rear to flatten the jib as much as possible.
I still get a little bubble in the main and jib so I think my sails are a little blown out.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That all sounds good.

Don't think that a bubble in the mainsail is a bad thing when sailing closehauled. The mainsail is capable of generating more power than the boat can use efficiently when sailing closehauled, so, the way to go fast is to bleed off some of that excess power. When you're sailing closehauled in stronger winds, a bubble in the mainsail depowers the mainsail. By doing so, you equalize the pressures on the sailplan forward and aft of the CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance), and, because of the equal pressures fore and aft, you will have a very light tiller pressure, and that means the rudder will produce much less drag. The result of all that is that the boat will go faster and sail closer to the wind. In the race yesterday, the boat was surfing at times. If we had to push hard on the tiller to keep the boat on course, it wouldn't have surfed, because the drag from the rudder would have acted like brakes, preventing the boat from gaining enough speed to start surfing. Most people trim all the bubble out of the mainsail, thinking that a perfectly smooth mainsail is always good. It isn't. There is a point when you need to begin to depower the mainsail. At first you can depower it by using sail trimming techniques such as these, but eventually you have to take stronger measures, such as tucking in a reef.

A bubble in the mainsail, when the traveler is eased down in strong winds, isn't a sign that your mainsail is blown out. A perfectly good mainsail will do the same thing.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Would a boom vang help in these conditions. I think pulling down on the boom would help keep it flat[quote]A vang would help a little in those conditions, but if you are doing all the things you list above, the boat should sail well to windward.

Today I easy it out some to drop the heel and when I do that it does blow out a little. I have been using twist (with the traveler and tightening things down when the wind picks up.

When the wind is strong and I am pointing close haul I drop the traveler leeward all the way, is this supposed to make the back bubble?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Easing the traveler to leeward in strong winds should make the luff of the mainsail (i.e., it's leading edge) lift, and form a bubble. The reason is because the jib is trimmed in close to the mainsail, and it is funneling a massive amount of air into the very narrow slot between the mainsail and jib. The slot is too narrow to permit that much air to pass through the slot at once, so the air causes the luff of the mainsail to lift, creating the bubble. (Edit: I wrote this this AM before my brain was fully engaged. The following is a correction.) By easing the traveler to leeward, you narrow the slot even more, reducing the size of the gap for the air to pass through. This depowers the mainsail, and it has two effects: it balances the pressures on the sailplan fore and aft, and it greatly reduces heeling. Both of those effects greatly reduce drag, and make the boat go faster and point higher.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/14/2013 08:54:18

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