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Overtaking Boat and Right of Way

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redeye
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Initially Posted - 03/10/2014 : 05:59:32

Wow.. had a rockin day of Sailing yesterday.. 10-15 gusting to 20. Big jib on and dipping the rail. The downwind runs were a hoot..

So... I'm running downwind and on my left another sailboat in coming up on me and the helmswoman asks me who has the right of way. I say we do.

I'm running on a strbrd tack ( the sails are on the starbrd side ) the boat coming up on my port side is also on a strboard tack. he is overtaking me and I say I have the right of way. Courtesy dictates that he should overtake me on the downwind side, so as not to steal my wind while overtaking me, but that was no big whoop.

If he was overtaking me on my strbrd side I still have the right of way?

thanks..

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 06:47:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">( the sails are on the starbrd side )<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I may be picturing this incorrectly, but if your sails are on the starboard side, you are on a port tack. If I was overtaking you, I would have passed you on your port side as well. It would seem, if you're sailing downwind, the other boat would have to be directly behind you to any effect on your wind.

What are you getting passed for anyway......

Don't you know two boats on the same tack.....nevermind..

Edited by - Davy J on 03/10/2014 06:49:56

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 07:08:10

<< but if your sails are on the starboard side, you are on a port tack. >>

AHah... that's what I thought ...

The Helmswoman claimed the name of the tack is the same side as the sails are on...

I always thought the name of the tack is the side the wind comes from...

SO... wind from the left side ( port side ) = port tack.. I was on a port tack. Correct???

As was the other overtaking boat. ( a bigger sailboat )

Port tack overtaking me on the port side.. I have the right of way...???

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 07:57:26

As I understand the rules, the overtaking boat is the burdened vessel. It's "burden" is to not run into the rear of the other boat. The other vessel is called the "stand-on," or "privileged" vessel.

When the overtaking, burdened boat comes alongside the other boat, then the status of the two boats will change, depending on whether the overtaking boat passes on the windward or leeward side of the other boat. The boat that is to windward becomes the burdened vessel, and the leeward boat is the stand-on vessel.

If you were both on port tack, and she passed you to windward, then she was the burdened vessel. If she had passed you to leeward, you would have been the burdened vessel.

Whether she chooses to pass you to windward or to leeward isn't a matter of courtesy. It's similar to driving on the interstate highway. If you want to pass a slower vehicle, you generally move into the fast lane. On sailboats, the windward side is the equivalent of the "fast lane." It's her choice.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/10/2014 08:09:08

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:04:38

The overtaking boat, no matter what tack or propulsion, should keep clear.

Be careful about the term "right of way"--it misstates the intention of the rules, and is not used in them. In a meeting situation, the rules define which boat is the "give-way vessel"--responsible for keeping out of the other boat's way; and which boat is the "stand-on vessel"--responsible for making that easy by maintaining course and speed. If the give-way vessel does not appear to be meeting its responsibilities, the stand-on vessel becomes responsible for signalling and then doing whatever else is necessary. But the intention is to avoid the "shall we dance" maneuver, which can lead to trouble.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/10/2014 08:06:43

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:20:07

Copied from the BoatUS web site:

"Your primary obligation is to operate in a safe manner. Under the Rules, there is no "right-of-way" like there is on a street. For most situations, Boats are called one of the following:

•Give-Way Vessel - If you are the Give-Way vessel, you must act as if the "stand-on" vessel has the right to keep going the way it is going. It is your responsibility to signal your intentions to the stand-on vessel, and it is your responsibility to maneuver your boat around the other in a safe manner. Also known as a "Burdened" vessel,
as it has the burden of.

•Stand-On Vessel - If you are the Stand-On vessel, it is your responsibility to acknowledge the intended actions
of the give-way vessel. You must also maintain your current course and speed until the give-way vessel passes, or you enter a dangerous situation."

More can be found here:
http://www.boatus.com/foundation/guide/navigation_2.html

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:25:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Rules of the Road

The Overtaking Situation

Any vessel overtaking any other vessel must keep out the way of the vessel
being overtaken. The former is the give-way vessel and the latter is the
stand-on vessel.

This rule applies even if the overtaking vessel is propelled by wind, oars,
or rubber band paddlewheel.

A vessel is deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel
from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft (behind) her beam. This is
the angle prescribed by the stern light.

At night, the overtaking vessel will see only the white stern light of the vessel
being overtaken. If you see either side light, it is a crossing situation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:32:19

Another section of the rules states that an overtaking vessel remains the give-way vessel as it overtakes and even immediately thereafter ("past and clear"). The status does not change as it comes alongside. So you can't pass me and then cut me off if I'm maintaining course and speed. Racing rules might alter that for the racecourse, and might be recognized in the protest room, but they won't be in the Admiralty Court room.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Rule 13 - Overtaking...

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/10/2014 08:38:26

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:33:43

<< The overtaking boat, no matter what tack or propulsion, should keep clear. >>

That's what I had thought... thank you for restating the rules for me..

I need to write those terms down in the vessel. "Stand-On Vessel" and "Give-Way Vessel"

I don't even think about it much as I try to stay away from everybody, but I had some guests at the helm and asking me questions.

My most common answer was:
"Hold your course" ( Which is kinda like saying .. communicate your intent )

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:42:31

I keep a laminated "cheat sheet" on the boat. We bring it out and place it under the companionway. It is easy to see and clears up the " which tack the other sailboat is on" question.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 08:48:39

That is interesting... cause what was happening, ( as I was not at the helm and was lookout ) was we would be in a crossing situation and the helmsman would alter course to run from the boat and then it would become an overcoming situation.

lots of traffic on this lake so I normally tack before an awkward situation is created.

It was a fun day! Inexperienced helmsman and a big jib creating a blind spot. I had one other very experienced sailor onboard to help.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 09:04:58

As I tell my wife when she takes the tiller, Remember the number 1 rule in boating, Just don't hit anyone and you will be OK...

Edited by - islander on 03/10/2014 09:07:09

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 09:23:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As I tell my wife when she takes the tiller,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I conjur up my best Captain Ron voice and say, "Oh yeah, and don't bump into anything"......
She just mumbles something probably unquotable.....

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 09:25:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Another section of the rules states that an overtaking vessel remains the give-way vessel as it overtakes and even immediately thereafter ("past and clear"). The status does not change as it comes alongside. So you can't pass me and then cut me off if I'm maintaining course and speed. Racing rules might alter that for the racecourse, and might be recognized in the protest room, but they won't be in the Admiralty Court room.

[quote]Rule 13 - Overtaking...

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You're right Dave. The exact point when the overtaking boat becomes a stand on vessel is when she pulls past and clear of the other yacht. Until then, her burden is to stay clear of the overtaken boat. After that point, she is free to sail as high as she wishes. In most cases, it will be academic, because most boats of similar size and design won't be able to pass to leeward and still out point the other boat. Where it becomes an issue is when the overtaking boat is significantly bigger and faster than the other. A bigger, faster boat can pass to leeward and still get enough wind in it's sails to be able to foot faster and point higher than a smaller or slower boat.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 09:37:01

Thanks Steve, I was seriously questioning your post before the subsequent clarification. I was pretty sure that status didn't change mid pass as I initially read it.

Edited by - on

TCurran
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 10:57:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Thanks Steve, I was seriously questioning your post before the subsequent clarification. I was pretty sure that status didn't change mid pass as I initially read it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
+1

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redeye
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 12:57:09

<< Whether she chooses to pass you to windward or to leeward isn't a matter of courtesy. It's similar to driving on the interstate highway. If you want to pass a slower vehicle, you generally move into the fast lane. On sailboats, the windward side is the equivalent of the "fast lane." It's her choice. >>

IMHO....
TO pass me, on the windward side, ( on a reach ) and steal my wind in the process is considered bad form. You basically pass me and leave me in your ever widening wind shadow behind and downwind of you, where I stall out until you are long gone. If you pass me on the downwind side, you lose speed in my shadow, a small area close to me, till you pass and then we both get to continue in neither ones shadow.

One is like sailing with them, and the other is like smokin em.....

Try smoking me and I'm liable to pinch you out of the pass...

Pass me on the downwind side and I'm likely to pinch up and stall myself to allow you to quickly make it past my wind shadow.. considered good form of me.

These were things taught to me from other sailors.

Cheers!

Edited by - redeye on 03/10/2014 13:06:39

islander
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 13:33:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">TO pass me, on the windward side, ( on a reach ) and steal my wind in the process is considered bad form.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well Ray the answer here is to not get passed. Put the beer down, sit up straight, Trim the sails and start sailing!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 15:37:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye TO pass me, on the windward side, ( on a reach ) and steal my wind in the process is considered bad form. You basically pass me and leave me in your ever widening wind shadow behind and downwind of you, where I stall out until you are long gone. If you pass me on the downwind side, you lose speed in my shadow, a small area close to me, till you pass and then we both get to continue in neither ones shadow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I'll bet you're one of those guys who drives down the highway doing 40 and holding up a line of traffic when the speed limit is 60!

God didn't give that wind to you alone. He gave it to all of us. I can't steal what already belongs to me!

I see it from the opposite perspective. It seems rude for you to want to keep all the best wind for yourself, and not share it with the rest of us, your good sailing buddies, even for the few brief moments that it would take us to blast past you.

When you think about it from that point of view, doesn't it make you feel just a little bad?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Pass me on the downwind side and I'm likely to pinch up and stall myself to allow you to quickly make it past my wind shadow.. considered good form of me.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That doesn't sound very seamanlike, to pinch until you stall. My idea of being considerate is to blow past you as fast as I can, to make your pain short-lived.

These were things I learned by reading the collected writings of Ted Turner, who set the gold standard for courtesy and gentility on a sailing yacht.

Cheers!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 17:20:04

I don't really care which side I'm passed on, although I would lean towards Steve if I had to choose. I read a cruising book, Cruises With Kathleen, a long time ago in which the author had just transitioned from gazillion horsepower Cigarettes to sail. He had one observation that stuck with me: "flat out in a sailboat is still dead slow". A few seconds doesn't mean much to me with my casual approach to cruising.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 17:34:34

<< My idea of being considerate is to blow past you as fast as I can >>

That too...

Yepper... I don't know .. I was just told some of these things and thought they were the norm... Good to hear another's perspective.

I find most of the boats on Lanier blow past me so fast it is a moot point anyway... Another sailor I know these things would bother..

Not me... Like you said... Ya can't steal what ya can't own..

ANyhoo.. It was a killer day!

Talk about no twist...

This boat was so fast I don't think it had a wind shadow...

THese guys looked happy...
.

Another smokin boat...

For everyone up north... Hang on guys... Spring is coming!

Edited by - redeye on 03/10/2014 18:54:50

cshaw
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 18:21:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 << My idea of being considerate is to blow past you as fast as I can >>

Yepper... I don't know .. I was just told some of these things and thought they were the norm... Good to hear another's perspective.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Redeye,

For what its worth, most all of the considerate sailors I have known for the 52 years I have sailed pass to leeward if it is safe to do so, or far enough to windward to minimize my disturbance to them (which is quite different than passing to weather while blowing past as fast as possible). I guess it can be argued blowing past quickly also minimizes the effects to the slower boat, but I have always been charmed by the gentlemanly traditions of Corinthian Yachting. The sailor you referred to that would be "bothered" I think would understand the point I am trying to make. I also suspect he would be more disappointed than actually "bothered".

However, if we are racing against each other I will do my best to screw up your wind within the RRS's if I can pass you, and would expect the same between any boats competing since using the the wind effects, your sailing skills, and the rules to the best advantage can make racing a very sophisticated competitive sport.

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 19:11:17

My approach, when a C-22 with dark sails was gaining from astern, was to tack away.

(As we often say, when there are two boats on the same tack on one body of water...)

Here on the Mystic River, a large no-wake zone, I am often passed in Sarge by larger sailboats under sail because if I go as fast a they go, I draw too much wake. In that situation, my $+!nkp*+ is the stand-on vessel and they must keep clear. Within the channel, I shade over to starboard to invite them to pass on my port, and slow down to let it happen more quickly. Technically, that's not quite what the rules call for from the stand-on vessel, but my overall interpretation of the rules is "Don't be dick."

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/10/2014 19:13:31

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 19:25:29

Yepper..

Iffin you pass to windward and the person is still ahead and gets hit with a gust they can turn up into your path, or even into you.

Pass below them and they will turn up and their wind shadow keeps you from doing the same.

Safer pass when you are not sure of the skills of the boat you are passing.

Whole nother story racing.... Then you are trying to smoke um!

But... it is just a verbalization of the situation.. it's all good..

That Sailor that gets "bothered"... She grew up on Lanier, was a professional Skier on the circuit.. ( Lanier, Callaway and Silver Springs), Crewed racing on Lanier, became a winning windsurfer, and judged the Olympics Sailing in Savannah. She always had a fit when that happened... Talk about competitive... I always cracked a Beer and said Cheers, and (as my Mom claims my first words were)... Look at the boat!

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 03/10/2014 : 19:44:47

Talk about feelin slow... You oughta see these guys come zippin by...

We don't even see the pass till it is over.... And we have a coupla new hobies ( I think ) that go zippin all around the lake... It's a hoot.

Always fun to watch them tack...

Edited by - redeye on 03/10/2014 19:45:59

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/11/2014 : 09:42:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshawFor what its worth, most all of the considerate sailors I have known for the 52 years I have sailed pass to leeward if it is safe to do so, or far enough to windward to minimize my disturbance to them (which is quite different than passing to weather while blowing past as fast as possible). I guess it can be argued blowing past quickly also minimizes the effects to the slower boat, but I have always been charmed by the gentlemanly traditions of Corinthian Yachting. The sailor you referred to that would be "bothered" I think would understand the point I am trying to make. I also suspect he would be more disappointed than actually "bothered".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We all extend courtesies to each other when we're on the water and otherwise, but any implication that it is rude to pass another boat to windward is, IMO, plainly unreasonable. First, courtesies are favors that we extend to others, not because we are obliged to, but purely as a matter of grace. We have no obligation, for example, to let a car pull out of a side street into a long line of traffic. We do it as a matter of grace. We also do it in the hope that someone will extend us the same consideration in the future. But, we don't always let that car out. It's a judgment call that we make in each case, depending on the circumstances. If you thought that, by letting that car out, you would end up making yourself 15-30 minutes later for your appointment, would you still do it? Most probably would not. It's a judgment call that we make dependent on all the circumstances.

In deciding whether or not I should extend a particular courtesy to another, I consider which of us will be more adversely affected if I do so. I don't think most reasonable people expect anyone to extend them a courtesy that would be likely to have a significant adverse effect on the person extending the favor. For example, if you are overtaking another boat of similar size and speed to your own boat, and, if you are capable of passing him to windward, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing so as quickly as possible. Your alternative is to bear off to leeward, and sail into the other boat's wind shadow, where you will undoubtedly be pinned until he decides to alter course and clear your air. If you both intend to continue on that heading for ten miles, then doing so could easily delay your arrival at your destination by 15-30 minutes or more. IMO, it's unreasonable to pin my boat beneath his when I have enough speed to pass him to windward.

In short, I use the Rule of Reason in deciding whether to extend a courtesy. If it's reasonable to extend a courtesy, I do so. If it's unreasonable, I do not.

I apply the same Rule of Reason on the race course, as well as off. For example, if I'm on the windward leg, and encounter another boat of a different racing class that has already rounded the mark and that is coming toward me under a symmetrical spinnaker, and, if I am the stand-on vessel, and the other boat is burdened, I will often try to pinch across his stern, if possible, instead of forcing him to make a major change of course, not because any rule or custom says I have to, but just because it's the reasonable thing to do under the circumstances.

IMO, to label the overtaking and passing of another boat to windward as rude or unmannerly is an oversimplification. Like Dave, it doesn't offend me if another boat overtakes mine from astern and passes me to windward. It isn't a personal affront. It's just a rational choice that a skipper makes, based on all the facts and circumstances, and giving due consideration to the interests of both boats. (That's not to say that I'm not embarrassed at my inability to generate enough speed to hold him off, but that's my fault, not his.

)

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