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Overtaking Boat and Right of Way

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 03/11/2014 : 10:44:51

This turned into a thread well worth reading. Thanks.

Similar topic. When motoring in a confined area and then being overtaken by a boat capable of much faster speeds, then slow down!

We learnt this from a commercial skipper that was astern of us and our low speed was holding him up. He could have just up bow and pass us, but instead he called us on the Radio and suggested if we slowed, he could pass us without generating a risky wake.

I throttled back, he passed us in about 20 seconds and I throttled back up as he climbed up his own wake.

Now we routinely acknowledge vessels wanting to overtake and then slow to allow them to pass. Makes for a more comfortable situation for us, and feels a lot more gracious as described by others on this thread.

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 03/11/2014 10:45:48

OJ
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Response Posted - 03/11/2014 : 15:56:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 
IMHO....
TO pass me, on the windward side, ( on a reach ) and steal my wind in the process is considered bad form. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless you're passing your son, or daughter, or boss!

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 03/12/2014 : 19:49:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshawFor what its worth, most all of the considerate sailors I have known for the 52 years I have sailed pass to leeward if it is safe to do so, or far enough to windward to minimize my disturbance to them (which is quite different than passing to weather while blowing past as fast as possible). I guess it can be argued blowing past quickly also minimizes the effects to the slower boat, but I have always been charmed by the gentlemanly traditions of Corinthian Yachting. The sailor you referred to that would be "bothered" I think would understand the point I am trying to make. I also suspect he would be more disappointed than actually "bothered".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We all extend courtesies to each other when we're on the water and otherwise, but any implication that it is rude to pass another boat to windward is, IMO, plainly unreasonable.

In deciding whether or not I should extend a particular courtesy to another, I consider which of us will be more adversely affected if I do so. I don't think most reasonable people expect anyone to extend them a courtesy that would be likely to have a significant adverse effect on the person extending the favor. For example, if you are overtaking another boat of similar size and speed to your own boat, and, if you are capable of passing him to windward, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing so as quickly as possible. Your alternative is to bear off to leeward, and sail into the other boat's wind shadow, where you will undoubtedly be pinned until he decides to alter course and clear your air. If you both intend to continue on that heading for ten miles, then doing so could easily delay your arrival at your destination by 15-30 minutes or more. IMO, it's unreasonable to pin my boat beneath his when I have enough speed to pass him to windward.

In short, I use the Rule of Reason in deciding whether to extend a courtesy. If it's reasonable to extend a courtesy, I do so. If it's unreasonable, I do not.

I apply the same Rule of Reason on the race course, as well as off. For example, if I'm on the windward leg, and encounter another boat of a different racing class that has already rounded the mark and that is coming toward me under a symmetrical spinnaker, and, if I am the stand-on vessel, and the other boat is burdened, I will often try to pinch across his stern, if possible, instead of forcing him to make a major change of course, not because any rule or custom says I have to, but just because it's the reasonable thing to do under the circumstances.

IMO, to label the overtaking and passing of another boat to windward as rude or unmannerly is an oversimplification.

)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,

I think we will simply have to settle for agreeing to disagree on our responses to Redeye's question.

However, I do not understand your suggesting I am saying your approach is "Rude". I did not say that and did not even imply it (someone else did say it was "bad form", but you quoted me, not them...) What I DID try to say was I "like" going out of my way to be courteous (even if it inconveniences me) when passing or meeting another boat while out casually sailing because my mentors in sailing did the same and it impressed me. You apply a reasonableness test. I do not make any judgments on that. We have two different views, and we are each entitled to them. Perhaps we are actually doing the same thing, and our definitions of "reasonable" are different? Who knows (or cares). :-)

I also don't see the problem in "expecting" other boaters (or drivers, or runners, or golfers or fishermen, etc. etc.) to be courteous. That does not mean I am "bothered" like Redeye's friend when another boater is not courteous to me when they had the opportunity to be, but it is a bit disappointing. I think it might be a better world with a bit more courtesy?

Your example of your being delayed a lot if you passed to leeward amused me, since if you were already passing another boat, if you chose to either fall off far enough to minimize their wind shadow on you, or headed up to minimize yours, neither boat would be "pinned".

Clearly, in confined navigational situations, no one should put the other boat or your own in a difficult situation. But I think Redeye was asking about more of an "open water" situation they had experienced.

Where I do totally agree with you was not intentionally messing up another boat that is racing when you are not directly competing with them. My comments were not addressing that situation however. I was referring to boats that I was racing against. Blanketing and backwinding, etc. are age old tactics well accepted in racing.

I think Redeye did a good thing introducing this thread!

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/12/2014 : 21:51:47

I found it interesting (and useful) that the "rules of the road" (water) are so similar to the rules of the road (land), and to themselves. Take two boats approaching each other... If two cars meet at stop-signs, the one on the right goes first. Two powerboats: the boat that sees the other to starboard (right) lets her cross. At night, the one who sees the approaching red running light lets it cross--it will be approaching from the right. Green will be to the left, and means stand-on (proceed)--you will be showing the other your red. Two sailboats on different tacks to windward: the one on the right is on starboard tack, and proceeds--the one on the left is on port. Overtaking from astern, the passing boat (or car, or truck) must keep clear (except maybe in Germany). In a channel, a pass is expected to be to the left (starboard to port--"two whistles"), as on the road. And each rule can be bent if (1) it's a courtesy to the other vessel, and (2) it won't cause confusion to her or anyone else in the vicinity. It all makes sense. One rule unique to sailing is for two boats closing on the same tack (windward gives way)... The simple fact that the windward boat can more easily tack away or duck under without tacking, to me, makes that rule make sense.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/12/2014 22:02:19

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/12/2014 : 22:45:37

Until now, this has been a fairly thoughtful and dispassionate discussion of the different ideas some of us have about sailing manners, and I'd like to keep it that way. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw

I do not understand your suggesting I am saying your approach is "Rude". I did not say that and did not even imply it (someone else did say it was "bad form", but you quoted me, not them...)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I quoted, verbatim, a part of your earlier post because that was the post to which I was responding. Your comments simply gave context to my remarks.

That being said, however, what you did in fact say is: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">For what its worth, most all of the considerate sailors I have known for the 52 years I have sailed pass to leeward if it is safe to do so, or far enough to windward to minimize my disturbance to them (which is quite different than passing to weather while blowing past as fast as possible). I guess it can be argued blowing past quickly also minimizes the effects to the slower boat, but I have always been charmed by the gentlemanly traditions of Corinthian Yachting.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Conversely, that comment implies that one who doesn't pass to leeward, as you suggest, is not "considerate," or "gentlemanly," or "Corinthian." I suppose you could argue that there is a subtle distinction between characterizing an action as "rude" and characterizing it as being "inconsiderate," or "ungentlemanly," or "non-Corinthian," but I don't see the distinction.

Nevertheless, in my previous posts, I ignored the implication of those remarks for a variety of reasons. First, I wanted to avoid letting the discussion degenerate into a debate over "who said what" and "who is offended." I wanted to keep the discussion focused on the substantive issues. Secondly. I preferred to believe that your words were simply not well chosen, and that you didn't really intend to imply that I was "inconsiderate," or "ungentlemanly," or "non-Corinthian."

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You apply a reasonableness test. I do not make any judgments on that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh yes you do!

You just just don't realize it. In one of your posts you said you only "sailed pass to leeward if it is safe to do so." In other words, if it was unsafe, then you would deem passing to leeward to be unreasonable. The difference between us is that you apparently make only one concession to "reasonableness," and that is "safety." I have a very different way of deciding whether to pass to windward or to leeward. I, of course, also consider the safety of my boat as well as the other boat, but beyond that, I weigh the relative beneficial and adverse effects that my choice will have on each boat. If the detriment that my boat would suffer is disproportionate to the benefit that the other boat would enjoy, then I'll pass him to windward. Another way of thinking about it is, if he wouldn't be inconvenienced much by my passing him to windward, and, if I would be significantly inconvenienced by passing to leeward of him, then the courteous thing for him to do would be to defer to me and allow me to pass to windward of him. In other words, it seems to me that courtesy is a two-way street, so that I should defer to another boat when I can help him alot without much harm to my own interests, and he should defer to me when he can help me alot without much harm to his interests. That's reasonable. It doesn't strike me as at all reasonable for one boat to sacrifice itself on the altar of "courtesy."

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/13/2014 : 06:44:42

Gentlemen: How 'bout this:

"Second Wind, Second Wind, this is Passing Wind. OK if I pass on your port, or would you prefer your starboard?"

"Passing Wind: Port it is--I may need to fall off a little. Thanks for asking. Second Wind out."

"Second Wind: Roger that. Fair winds. Passing Wind out."

Done.

Communication...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/13/2014 07:01:16

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/13/2014 : 08:39:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Gentlemen: How 'bout this:

"Second Wind, Second Wind, this is Passing Wind. OK if I pass on your port, or would you prefer your starboard?"

"Passing Wind: Port it is--I may need to fall off a little. Thanks for asking. Second Wind out."

"Second Wind: Roger that. Fair winds. Passing Wind out."

Done.

Communication...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's another reasonable way to deal with the issue.

There's nothing wrong with Chuck's way of doing it, if you wish. All I'm saying is that, despite Chuck's seeming insistence on disagreeing with me, our actual practice really isn't very different. Chuck hasn't said that he always passes to leeward, because it is ungentlemanly to not do so.

In an earlier post, Chuck said: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">most all of the considerate sailors I have known for the 52 years I have sailed pass to leeward if it is safe to do so, or far enough to windward to minimize my disturbance to them. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Who makes the decision as to whether his boat is far enough to windward to minimize disturbance to the other boat? Chuck makes that decision, and so do I.

In every case, he and I both make a rational judgment as to whether or not we would unreasonably interfere with an overtaken boat by passing it to windward. If he decides that he is far enough to windward of the other boat so that he won't unreasonably interfere with it, then he passes it to windward. So do I. If he thinks he is so close to the overtaken boat that he would unreasonably interfere with it if he passed it to windward, then he would duck to leeward of it. That's one place where we certainly differ. I would not duck to leeward of it, because to do so would put my boat in it's wind shadow, and would kill my boatspeed and give up some hard earned ground to windward, which I don't like to do. Instead, I would probably take a short tack to windward, open the distance between my boat and his so that I could tack again and pass him far enough to windward so that I wouldn't unreasonably interfere with him. By tacking to windward instead of ducking to leeward of him, I keep my boat in clear air, where she can continue to make all the speed she is capable of making. If he should cross my tack at some later point, then by that time I would probably have gained enough ground so that he would cross my stern (since my boat appears to be fast enough to overtake him from behind)), and my air would be clear from that point on.

I would not radio the other boat to ask his opinion. By tacking to windward so that I won't significantly affect him, it's no longer of interest to him what I do.

The implication that you must duck to leeward of an overtaken boat or else you will be considered ill-mannered oversimplifies the matter. You're all free to deal with it as you wish, but you should understand that ducking to leeward is not the only acceptable choice for a Corinthian sailor. You have lots of choices, and you can deal with it in any way that you wish. Chuck and I agree that you shouldn't interfere with another boat unnecessarily or unreasonably.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/13/2014 08:55:31

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/13/2014 : 14:48:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve MilbyI would not radio the other boat to ask his opinion. By tacking to windward so that I won't significantly affect him, it's no longer of interest to him what I do.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...at which point this issue is moot. That could be reasonable in open water... Where I am, it's more often an issue when the boats are in a channel, often with other traffic ahead and astern, so any course change could have an effect. A quick hand gesture sometimes is all it takes, and a radio call is sometimes even better. If the boat ahead is planning to turn to approach a mooring, for example, passing him on that side could ruin that plan. If his head isn't on a swivel, it could ruin yours, too. (That's undoubtedly why the overtaking boat is the "give-way vessel.") The point is to keep the hand gestures the ones you make with all four fingers.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/13/2014 14:55:04

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