Association Forum - Fancy new anchor?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Fancy new anchor?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/24/2014 : 21:02:19

My boat came with two 7-lb. lunchhooks. Both are Danforth look-alikes, one with a WestMarine label. A friend sold me a 13 lb. Danforth clone for $5, so I have total of three anchors.

I've only anchored twice, for lunch both time. Never anchored overnight. This year I'm hoping to head down into the Chesapeake for a week, and although I like renting slips in marina (showers, etc.), I would like the option of anchoring for a night or two.

Do you think I need a fancy new Rocna/Manson/Mantus type anchor? If so, what weight? 15 lb or 25 lb? Or can I just get by with what I have? I hate to thing of spending $200+ on an anchor that I may never use, but on the other hand, peace of mind and a good night sleep are important too.

What do you guys use? And what kind of bottoms to you anchor in? Should I consider the Defender sale for my purchase? I've looked at Craigslist and ebay over the last several months, and never found anything better than what I have.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/24/2014 21:04:55

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2014 : 21:35:00

The Danforth clone with about 25' of chain ought to be enough, even if you get into a blow. The important thing is to anchor in an area that is sheltered from significant waves. I would suggest that you also add 25' of chain to one of the lunch hooks, to give you some additional holding power, just in case. (I got caught once without enough holding power, and had to get off my C22 and push it off the beach a couple of times during lulls in the storm.

Having a little extra holding power is a good thing.)

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 02:04:32

Whooo-Hoooo, an anchor thread!!!!

I thought we might make it all the way through this winter and not have one.......

What is the bottom like in the Chesapeake? That's what will really determine which anchor is right for you. And as Steve suggested, all anchors will perform better with lots of chain.

On the west coast of Florida we have lots of sand, however, a short trip down to the Keys, and you get a hard rocky bottom. For my area, I use a Guardian G-11 anchor made by Fortress with about 20' of chain. I have never had it drag, however, it's big and will not fit in the anchor locker. It resides in a roller on the bow.

Here is West Marine's guide to selecting an anchor:
http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-The-Right-Anchor

Edited by - Davy J on 03/25/2014 02:13:50

Alan Clark
Captain

Members Avatar

406 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 03:53:40

We did a lot of research on the new next generation anchors also practical sailor did some also and has some on going. Our boat came with a Danforth Anchor attached to double braid. I replaced that with chain and triple twist than this year from Defender we bought a Mansen Supreme 25 lb. anchor. We feel if we anchor 5 times we have paid for it and also our boat and a good nights sleep is worth it. When we went to ASA sailing school we spent the night on the hook - fortress anchor- and without going into too much detail there was a storm, the anchor broke free and did not reset after spinning 180 degrees, luckily we got it up and got out to open sea. Looking forward to setting the Mansen.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 09:58:04

I like a Fortress for my location.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 10:38:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 ...What is the bottom like in the Chesapeake? That's what will really determine which anchor is right for you...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm not an expert on the Chesapeake, but everything I've read and heard from others (and a little personal experience too) indicates that the vast majority of anchorages are mud. So a Danforth-type should work well in those areas. The major question is the Danforth's difficulty re-setting if a storm comes through with a change of wind direction. That's my main concern, since re-setting is a known weakness of the Danforth-like fluke designs.

I once bought a Fortress FX-7(?) but returned it because its shank was too large to fit in my anchor locker, and I did not want to hack off part of it on such a work of art. In retrospect, I'm glad I returned it because I don't think I need yet another Danforth-like design.

Here's an idea that I had forgotten about: I also have a ~15 lb mushroom anchor on my Trophy boat. If I were to install it onto the chain near the end closest to the rode to act as a kellet, would that encourage the Danforth to re-set if needed?

For the small amount of anchoring that I do, I would much prefer to make use of tackle that I already have in my arsenal. Plus, a 25 lb Manson or similar is going to be very difficult to store. A little mushroom would be much easier to store.

Those of you who are experienced at overnight anchoring - what do you think?

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/25/2014 11:17:30

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 12:11:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> but everything I've read and heard from others (and a little personal experience too) indicates that the vast majority of anchorages are mud.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You might want to take another look at the Fortress. Fortress anchors include what they call "mud palms". Plus they can't be beat for weight.

Copied from WM site:
"Fortress anchors have greater holding power in mud because they can be adjusted from their standard 32° to a broad 45° fluke angle".

The Guardian anchors, made by Fortress, do not have this feature.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 14:23:36

Well.. if you put 25 feet on chain on just about anything it will pretty much stay put. Any blow coming up bigger than my anchors could hold and I always run for cover anyway. ( that means run to a pier to ride it out )

I don't know the Chesapeake, I don't have charts, and I've only been out on it once, the Wye river area out of StMichaels. Most of it looks like, say, Appalachacola Bay to me ( but with a mud and grass bottom... the north part of the bay ).. lots of open water with low land surrounding it. Hard to get close to shore without loosing depth so you end up anchored out a bit from land.

Can't comment on the river either.

Looks like the north bay area must be pretty shallow with a relatively flat bottom. It looks like a no brainer to me.. drive up towards the lee shore and anchor up in 10-15 feet of water ( with no tides to speak of, add 6 feet for your east coast tides ). Drive in and back out to see what the bottom is doing. You should still be far away enough from shore to have plenty of depth should you swing in towards shore. You have weather forecasts so well now you just about know what to expect 36-48 hours out. Stay far enough away from the channel to stay out of traffic.

Hell.. I quit worrying about the anchor holding years ago, now I just worry about the bugs. I'd put on my scuba gear and drop down to the bottom and look at the anchor.... it would be sitting there, flat on the bottom, and the last two links of the chain would be pulling up and down with the waves. If I didn't set the anchor it would have never set unless the wind really kicked up... it would have laid there till I pulled it up the next morning.

The anchor holds, unless you get a real storm coming up, or tornadoes.. either one and who knows what will hold. Most of the time it will drag till it hangs something. The 25/250 is just not that heavy of a boat.

Ya gotta have some form of faith.. and that pretty much comes from experience, and your own confidence in evaluating the situation. I usta throw out the anchor and look out every hour and worry, and check my position relative to different landmarks, and just barely get any sleep. We'd say the first two nights are sleepless, and then the third you are out like a light.

Look at Steve, he was up on the sand and he lived .... probably has a chuckle about it now.

I will say I listen to the weather radio every night before I go to sleep.. pretty much a ritual, and I've always listened to it before I plan my anchorage. I want land between me and the weather, and I've always got my eye on the possible protected coves in my area. I spend a lot of time reading my charts ( now on the computer ) way before I head out.

It sure is fun though....

Edited by - redeye on 03/25/2014 18:24:49

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 17:28:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 Well.. if you put 25 feet on chain on just about anything it will pretty much stay put.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's my reasoning as well. You can buy a bigger, better anchor and add a kellet, but if you have 25' of chain on a 12# danforth style, it should hold a 25' Catalina in anything you're likely to encounter, especially if you anchor in a reasonably sheltered area. In the storm that beached my C22, the windspeed was reported to be 60 mph, and my friend's C25 stayed put in that storm on a danforth 12# with no more than 25' of chain.

If the wind shifts, the weight of the chain should have much the same effect as a kellet, up to a point. Adding a kellet has basically the same effect as adding alot more chain. It causes the boat to pull back on the anchor, rather than up.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 18:12:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Alan Clark
 ...Our boat came with a Danforth Anchor attached to double braid. I replaced that with chain and triple twist...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Also a good choice. The elasticity of twisted nylon not only makes things more comfortable in some chop--it helps prevent shock loads from jerking the anchor free. Double-braid has almost no shock absorption. (I use nylon for my dock lines at home, too.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/25/2014 18:18:34

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 19:18:12

I like my Danforth, but resetting will never be a strong point. The WestMarine version is probably ok, but P/S compared some Chinese knockoffs to real Danforth and Fortress a few years ago - some were acceptably inferior, but most were almost worthless. Weight counts for initial penetration as bottoms get harder, and the weight of the chain does not contribute to anchor setting. Keep in mind that Steve sails the Chesapeake.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2014 : 19:31:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 ...and the weight of the chain does not contribute to anchor setting...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whoa... That'll get Anchor Sten going!

The weight of the chain, along with scope, contributes significantly to a low-angle pull when setting, which is the key to setting (and resetting)--more than the weight of the anchor. The incredibly light Fortress (Danforth type) is one of the best performers in most tests. The bad Danforth knockoffs generally suffer from dull flukes and incorrect angles, as well as many being sold in packages with all-rope rodes or 5' of lightweight chain. Fortress flukes are sorta like lawn mower blades, and the angle is adjustable for the bottom type.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/25/2014 19:49:24

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 06:06:18

Something also to consider, in case you hadn't done this already, if you're seeking additional piece of mind while on the hook is to get a drag alarm. I haven't had an opportunity to use this in a real world situation yet, but I downloaded an app to my Iphone called Drag Queen. Once you get the anchor down, you set the Drag Queen app, and the alarm goes off if you travel further than the distance you set up on the app.

I tested it, and it seems to work okay.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 06:33:21

It's cool nowadays to be able to look at the google maps images to see where boats are anchored up.. Where the preferred anchorages are in different areas. No boats next to the water treatment plants....

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 11:03:51

One of the great pleasures of sailing on the central portion of the Chesapeake Bay (Baltimore down to Solomons) is the vast number of quiet anchorages to drop the hook! I've anchored overnight in at least 3 creeks, 2 coves, and 1 mooring field in my local river, the Magothy River (chart 12278). I have anchored a few times in different anchorages in the Rhode River (chart 12270) also on the western shore. I've also anchored on the eastern shore of the Bay in the Corsica River and Queenstown Creek off the Chester River (chart 12272), Tilghman Creek off the Eastern Bay, and Leeds Creek on the Miles River (chart 12270).

In each case, I could easily find a windward shore for protection, and only once or twice out of 30 or 40 times did I spend an uncomfortable night at anchor from rocking and rolling. Anchoring on the main stem of the Bay, however, is risky, due to the 10 to 20 to 50 mile fetch in many spots. Having nice big trees upwind onshore is the trick.

My handheld GPS has an anchor alarm that I like to use in a new place to confirm that the boat is not drifting due to anchor drag.

The charts of the Bay show italicized M nearly everywhere for mud, S for sand, SH for shells, OYS for oyster shells, and GR for grass. I avoid SH, OYS, and GR because my Danforth does not hold so well in those. You should note that SHL indicates a muddy shoal of unknown depth, and it does not indicate shells! I believe the local charts on paper and on my GPS are accurate, and I always use them for navigating into and out of all these creeks and rivers.

Under the red marker "14" on this part of chart 12270 are shown "M" near the top, "OYS" in the middle, and "M" near the bottom. Everywhere around the Bay that is not labeled, such as the mouth of Leeds Creek on the right of this chart, is good ol' black mud, with 3 shoals reported just to keep you on your toes.

Choosing a cruising destination for each day out on the Bay, depending on the wind and distance to another anchorage, is fun and satisfying when conditions hold well enough to reach the place in time to drop the hook and relax for the evening! Of course, some towns and their marinas are too good to pass up!

Once I sailed northwest around the "green 1" marker into Dobbins Island cove, turned southwest behind the island, and dropped the anchor 100 yards from a visiting schooner. I was serenaded after sunset by the paid crew of the tourist boat who were singing sea shanties and playing squeeze box and tin whistle!

I hope you have an anchor roller to pull the muddy chain back up! If not, get a pair of heavy rubber gloves and tie a small wash bucket on foredeck for rinsing the mud off the gloves with some Bay water when you weigh anchor in the morning.

I'm sure you'll have a great time anchoring out on the Chesapeake Bay with your current equipment with 20-30 feet of chain added.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 14:51:57

By the way, I've spent a number of nights "on the hook" before. It's just always been someone else's hook - either a rented mooring (BVI and Annapolis) or rafted with someone else with a very oversized anchor (Broad Creek off of Magothy River). I've never slept on my own hook.

Let me ask some naive questions about chain. For my lunch hooks I would estimate that I only have 6-8' of chain. I will have to get more, especially if I want to spend the night sometime. What kind of chain do I need? Do I need to buy it at my local boat $tore, or is there an equivalent that I could buy at Home Depot? Is there a particular type of zinc coating that I need? Do I need the dull grey type, or is the shiny kind OK? What gauge or size? Are any special tensile properties needed?

By the way, Practical Sailor tested some chains and alternatives to chains within the last couple of months. IIRC, they said that fatter chain is not always better, so long as the gauge and tensile strength of the steel is strong enough. I think they said that thinner chains could burrow down into the mud better and give the shank a better angle for setting. But I'm not sure what their actual testing showed.

My little lunch hooks have always set fine in the muddy Delaware River. I'll have to test the 13 lb. anchor to see if it sets OK. I'm concerned that it might be a knockoff with dull flukes. Should I try to sharpen them with a grinder? I have some spray-on zinc coating that I could apply afterwards.

I don't plan to ever anchor in a 50 mph storm. If something like that was in the forecast, I would seek a marina. But as you know, sometimes the unexpected happens, or a marina is not close by.

I have a bunch or anchor alarms on my GPS, smartphone, and tablets. I would definitely use one for overnight use. I just would prefer not to have to wake up to re-set if the wind shifts.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 15:16:27

You want "hot-dipped galvanized"--not electroplate. Hot-dipped makes a thick, gray coating that can stand up to abrasion on the bottom. I don't know if you'll find it at Home Dopey. I suspect flukes don't need to be really sharp in mud--more so in hard sand and grass. (You can probably set a cinder block on a rope at the mouth of the Delaware.)

I wouldn't "sharpen" them--your zinc paint won't last through the first setting.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/26/2014 15:17:36

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 15:21:45

I just got an email from Defender. Manson anchors are 15% off for their annual sale. Still a helluva lot of money.

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/26/2014 15:22:36

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 18:16:20

If you want to be able to anchor on an oyster reef, you want a Manson or similar plow. I have a 22# Delta for biting in heavy gravel--that's the pre-rollbar generation of plow. For normal Chesapeake river/cove mud, your "Danforth" with some chain should be fine. But who among us knows for an absolute certainty?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2014 : 18:47:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 If you want to be able to anchor on an oyster reef, you want a Manson or similar plow. I have a 22# Delta for biting in heavy gravel--that's the pre-rollbar generation of plow. For normal Chesapeake river/cove mud, your "Danforth" with some chain should be fine. But who among us knows for an absolute certainty?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If I were going to anchor out every weekend, I'd spend the money on a Manson or similar. Instead I'm going to stick with my easy-to-store Danforth-style (all 3 of them) and just pick my locations (and conditions) to ensure I have a mud bottom and predictable wind/current.

Before going down to the Cheaspeake this June, I'll try out my 13 lb Danforth in the Delaware's mud bottom to see how it sets. I already know that the 7 pounders set just fine, but their flukes are thinner and sharper.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2014 : 05:53:00

I've heard several recommendations for 25' of chain. If I used a 15 lb. mushroom anchor as a kellet, how much do you think I could reduce the chain length?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2014 : 06:50:00

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2014 : 07:19:47

Just trying to figure out whether the chain I have right now is enough, or if I have to buy more.

My current chain is not hot-dipped - it's electorplated shiny stuff. It was re-purposed from a different application. The "professional marine mechanic" that I hired to help me block the boat my first winter bought chain that was too large to fit the notches of my boat stands (which I had bought from this guy). He got out a hack saw to widen the notches on my brand new boat stands, and I stopped him and said "I don't think so! I'll go buy the right size chain." So I was left with a bunch of surplus chain for my anchor. I'm going to keep using it until the zinc abrades off of it, then buy the hot-dipped stuff to replace it. But since I anchor so infrequently, the current chain could last several years.

The guy I hired turned out to be a total butcher, and he's not allowed anywhere near my boat. The others in my boat club told me afterwards that they won't use him either. But nobody would rat him out beforehand because he's a fellow member.

Edited by - on

sdpinaz
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
193 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2014 : 07:56:49

A kellet is NOT a substitute for a decently sized anchor and appropriate length of chain. A Kellet can certainly help, but I would factor your initial purchase of anchor/rode WITHOUT A kellet and then you can add the kellet if you want to make things more comfortable and less chance of snagging in light/moderate conditions... but as soon as you add the kellet into heavy conditions when there is lots of windage and not enough shock absortion, then the benefits of the kellet are eliminated as your rode is straightened and goes tight. Once that happens, there is a high probability that your light anchor and chain pulls free, right when you need it most. There is no substitute for a proper anchor/chain/rode. Add more scope if you need.

On another note, A kellet can help our wing keels in very light conditions and keep the rode from fouling the keel or rudder. But a kellet will also reduce the chance of the anchor properly setting so you want to drop anchor, pay out the scope you want, set the anchor, THEN pull up the rode by the depth of the anchorage plus a little and install the Kellet, let it out and then sit in the cockpit drink-in-hand

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2014 : 08:19:12

Chain weight does affect angle of pull, but it does not contribute directly to the anchor's penetration weight. Setting your anchor with more initial scope does the same thing. One book I read compared a variety of sailboats and found that with appropriate size chain, most of them had stretched all of the catenary out of 7:1 all chain rode in 30 knots of wind. Their conclusions were that the primary benefits of all chain were shorter scope in light conditions and abrasion resistance. Kellets help until you need help. If more chain lets you sleep better, then use more chain. Don't try to justify an arbitrary X number of feet as minimal or optimal. The only rule of thumb that I've ever heard that might be defensible is that chain should equal anchoring depth with line making up the balance of scope to keep the line off the bottom.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2014 : 08:22:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 I've heard several recommendations for 25' of chain. If I used a 15 lb. mushroom anchor as a kellet, how much do you think I could reduce the chain length?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I can't answer that question accurately, but I don't think a 15# kellet would help much. Charles F. Chapman in his book "Piloting Seamanship and Small Boat Handling" said: "A Sentinel (kellet) is a weight typically around 25-30lb suspended from the rode to help keep the pull on the anchor as horizontally as possible to prevent dragging in rough weather." Any amount of weight would help some, but 15# is fairly nominal.

Also scan this website for more information on kellets. http://www.anchorbuddy.co.nz/how.html

A couple thoughts, you could add 10-15' of chain to your existing chain, although I think that's likely to leave a weak link in your anchoring tackle. Or, you could buy a new 20-25' length of chain and take it with you when you move up to a bigger boat.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.