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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/11/2014 : 08:14:47

This started as a response to a question about replacing the compass, but it has gone so far off-topic that I'm posting it separately for anyone who might be interested in these other issues.

First, in response to the question about the angle of the bulkhead, I had taken some measurements for some CAD layouts for mods I've been doing, and I found that the bulkhead is about 20 degrees off vertical. The "bridge-deck" beneath the companionway is about 10 degrees. Seems likely that these convenient numbers were decided upon when the original shop drawings were produced, for convenience of drawing and fabrication. Engineers work that way, I've found (being one myself).

Indyshelley posted a photo of the inside view of the hole where he had removed his compass, and it raised a couple of Q's that I'd be interested in hearing more about (BTW, using that deckplate to cover the hole was a great idea, Jeff!). First, my 1980 (#2134) had the original Signet knotmeter right next to the compass, but Jeff's 1981 (#2443) doesn't. Apparently a design change I had never noticed.

Seems like an improvement to move that source of electromagnetic interference away from the compass. Did Catalina change the layout of the instruments between 1980 and 1981?

Also, there's a space between the outer fiberglass shell and the inner fiberglass liner that was partially-filled with some kind of polymer foam when the boat was assembled. The wiring for the compass light and the knotmeter runs through there (the wiring for the cabin lighting also runs throughout that space elsewhere). I found similar gaps in places like the window openings and under the cabintop where I mounted hardware for rigging control lines to the cockpit. In fact, when I tried to do the drill-fill-redrill method for the screws down through the cabintop, the epoxy I poured in came oozing out around the windows.

I think the factory must have assembled the entire upper half of the boat - shell and liner - and poured the foam material into the gap around the edges of the liner while the whole assembly was inverted. Or else, maybe they applied the foam resin mix to the inside surface of one of the two just before they fitted them together.

Jeff said that the area around the compass hole was solid on his boat (as it appears in the photo). On mine, that gap was not completely filled, maybe because the foam resin mix didn't flow efficiently past the wires. There are gaps between the outer shell and the inner liner. I noticed the same thing when I re-bedded the windows. Has anyone else noticed this? I'm wondering how extensive an issue this was.

The third thing I was curious about in Indyshelley's photo was that the water pump-dispenser at his galley sink was not the Whale Flipper (with the side-mounted lever) that I thought was standard. There was a thread here recently about rebuilding this pump, but nobody mentioned that there might have been different models installed. Jeff, do you know anything about this? Do you have a lavitory sink across from the head, and, if you do, does it have the same pump?

Does anyone else have this type of pump?

I'm always curious about the many differences between the thousands of Catalina 25's still around. A lot of them were factory changes, and I'm wondering how much documentation exists about them. These little boats are worthy of maintaining, and I'm sure many of them will still be in service many years from now. I hope this forum (and the database of archive information we're creating) will also be available to those future owners.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5896 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2014 : 10:00:10

I don't remember whether Catalina offered instruments as an option on a new C25, but they probably did. Even if they did, however, that doesn't necessarily mean Catalina installed them. It runs in my mind that Catalina shipped some optional items for my boat in boxes and required the dealer to install them as a part of the commissioning of the boat. I'm sure that was true of the head, and perhaps the Princess stove.

Nevertheless, I bought my C25 without instruments, as I suspect most buyers of small boats did, because they would have added alot to the cost of a new C25. Bill Holcomb would probably remember more if he sees this thread. Nevertheless, I believe most instruments on C25s were probably not factory installed.

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indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2014 : 19:20:47

Yes, I noticed a gap when I replaced my windows too. No gap at the compass bulkhead though.
I'm not sure if my water pump dispenser was original to my boat or not. No, I do not have a sink across from the head.
Below is a contribution to the mountain of documentation here. It is a 1985 Catalina 25 order form. It was given to me by the PO although it is not for my boat. I found it very interesting and it may answer some of your questions.

[url="https://www.catalina-capri-25s.net/cgi-local/MBR_system.cgi?VM+2685-2796"]

Click to View Full Sized Image[/url]

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2014 : 07:20:59

Hi Lee,
Here are a couple answers that might help.
First of all, there were continuous “running changes” to the C25 design and manufacturing methods throughout the production run from hull #1 to ~#6,000. Different materials were used – as well as different specific parts. One really noticeable change was the large portside cockpit locker. The original design had the opening hatch as far aft on the portside cockpit seat as possible and a “tray” for a fuel tank directly below the opening. The rest of the storage area was forward of the “tray”… but a bit difficult to retrieve items that had slid all the way forward in the compartment. The running change to this was made in the early eighties. A dedicated fuel tank locker was molded into the cockpit and the hatch for the locker was moved to the center of the seat. It’s easy – walking around the various marinas – to quickly identify newer and older C25s with this running change.
Next, Steve is right that the dealers installed many of the knotmeters and compasses. Sometimes these items were ordered with the boat… but not installed because the first buyer wanted to economize and avoid the cost. Other times the dealer would order these items from another source. Catalina allowed for about a 20% gross profit on factory purchased parts – while buying directly from the manufacturer or distributor often yielded a 25% or 30% gross profit. AND, of course, some boat owners would purchase these gauges on their own and install them. So, there is a great variance as to location and methods used to install…… I’ve been through two knotmeters and now have a Garmin GPS chartplotter on a bracket that I see through the old porthole for the knotmeter.
The construction of the C25 was accomplished by manufacturing the hull, inner cabin liner, and the deck/cockpit separately and then fitting the liner into the hull, followed by capping this with the deck/cockpit. Various kinds of fiberglass/epoxy slurries were used to “glue” the three parts together; plus through bolting the deck to hull joint and covering the bolts with the rub-rail. One would assume that the three parts would be identical for each boat. However, there were variances. And if there was a gap between parts, various foams, slurries, etc. were used to close or partially close the spaces. I don’t know about other boat manufacturers, but I’d assume that this was a fairly standard methodology in the 70s and 80s. This methodology certainly led to some “voids” where the foam, etc. didn’t completely fill the gaps. In fact, on some boats there was foam on one side (or one section) of the boat and not on the other.
The electrical harness was fitted to the liner before assembly. As was the wiring and transducer wiring for knotmeters and compass lights. When the boat was put together, the foam encapsulated the wires in many places. Once the boat is assembled, it is nearly impossible to access the wires. This is why many C25 owners have had to re-wire the mast light wiring from the wiring harness thru the deck near the base of the mast.
The water pump installation for the galley (and optional head sink) simply called for a hand pump. Catalina generally asked manufacturers and distributors to “bid” in a quantity discount way – and Catalina then would buy in large lots. So, the actual brand would change from time to time (this was the case for winches, teak, et al). Additionally, the pumps would sometimes fail sometime after the boat had been purchased ( and maybe sold by PO’s several times). The current owner of the boat might have decided to change the pump to an altogether different design. I was aboard a C25 a year or so ago that had a really neat brass hand pump that looked like it came from before WWII. This sort of thing is still going on… Just think of all of the current owners who are changing over to LED lighting for the interior lights.
I hope this adds some insight. With ~6,000 C25s out there, and with all the creativity of sailboat owners, there is bound to be lots of differences from one boat to the next…. Whether from the factory or due to after market installs.
Bill Holcomb – C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2014 : 14:32:53

My cutout for my vent.

two sides of the same disc.

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indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2014 : 19:29:54

Nice photos Redeye! What kind of vent did you put in and where?

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ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2014 : 19:53:27

That option sheet is cool. Add that to my files. I just bought a 1990 C25 with the original owners manual and commissioning page. Great history.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2014 : 07:39:47

<< What kind of vent did you put in and where? >>
Solar vent over the head.

<< Foam Resin Mix?? >>

My deck at the vent was hard resin filling the gap between the deck and liner. I imagine they would need the resin to get to two to seal up and become one, but filling it inverted it would fill only up to a point.

Adding a lot of resin would probably increase the weight.

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2014 : 08:15:19

Holy Moley. What is all that play-doh stuff?

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2014 : 08:25:57

Oh... yes.. I got a little carried away with the polysulfide. You know how it is, you get to the end of the project and decide to use up the tube cause you are gonna throw it away anyway....

That's funny, cause now if anybody asks now I'm gonna tell them it's PlayDough...

Hey.. I never claimed to be a professional at this!

Edited by - redeye on 05/14/2014 08:27:48

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