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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Gudgeon replacement

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/27/2003 : 17:47:34

I bought the new/improved gudgeons that CD sells. Is the upper gudgeon backing plate glassed in? Will it fall when I remove the gudgeon bolts? Do I need to install an access hatch before I start this project?

I just hope that you folks don't tire of my stupid questions.
I really do appreciate all of your help.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 19:42:01

The screws came out OK on my '83 C25. Nothing came loose inside. I'm planning to put the new screws in, properly caulked, and hope not to have to cut an access hole. The threaded backing plate on our boat appears to be glassed in.

Others have cut an access hole for the upper screws. I'm not sure if there's a threaded plate on earlier boats.

Good Luck!

-Don Jones "Swept Away" '83 C25 SR/FK, Southport, Charlotte, NC

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 22:39:05

Frank,

I think the new heavy-duty gudgeons are made for larger machine screws (5/16" vs 1/4") than the originals. It's been a while since I changed mine, but I'm sure someone else can verify if that is the case. I installed an inspection plate and a section of epoxied-in plywood w/SS fender washers as a backer on my '85. The threaded brass-strip backer in my boat was too wimpy for my liking.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 18:32:03

Yup, the threaded backing plate is well glassed in. Just make sure if you use new bolts, that they're the same length as the originals or you'll risk punching through the fiberglass that holds the threaded backing plate in.

Can't answer clearly about the bolt size for the HD gudgeon. I thought they were the same size as the original, but I also replaced the threaded backing plate with plywood and through bolts when I added a HD gudgeon.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 21:39:30

Frank,

There has been many a discussion about the few killer weak points of our boats. One of which, in my never-to-be-humble-opinion, was the dumb idea to use machine screws to hold on the gudgeons. Remember, without a rudder hanging off the stern, a boat is darned hard to steer!!!

Many of us have bit the bullet and installed thru-bolts to hold the gudgeons on. It is not so hard.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 08:09:10

I'm certainly not wanting to start any battles here, but am simply curious. Have there ever been any incidents of the original machine screws to fail? Is this class of risk similar in importance to the thru-hull issue? Shortly after we got our boat, we had the lower pintle bracket on the rudder fail under a heavy load. It looked like it had been cracked and corroding for awhile.

The boat is now on the stands for a bottom job. I too, bought the new HD rudder brackets from CD just to go along with the new pintles. I had quite a time getting the old ones out. Everything seemed quite sturdy.

Don Jones, "Swept Away", '83 C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 21:01:08

update.

The old gudgeons had holes sized for the 1/4" screws. The new ones from CD are sized for 5/16" holes. It'll be a couple of days before I get them installed. I'm going to drill/tap the backing plate in place for the new size screws and see how secure it is before I cut an access hole for the upper gudgeon.

-Don Jones
(presently installing thru-hulls)

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 22:07:39

Don,

As I recall, the brass backer strip on my upper gudgeon was being held by some of the brownish caulk that Catalina used and not much else. If you're going to drill and tap it you might want to work on one at a time and leave tightened screws in the other two holes. Other wise the drill might break the backer off the transom and then you'll be putting in the inspection port anyway.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 01:18:05

Just a little aside on the "hard to steer" part--in "The Everything Sailing Book", 2nd edition (isbn 1580626718) the authors point out sailboats can be steered by the sails alone and recommend the exercise of removing one's rudder to try it. The principle is simple: "to head up, trim the main, ease the jib, and heel the boat to leeward; to bear off, trim the jib, ease the main, and heel the boat to windward" (p.99). Write that on a little piece of paper and paste it on your access plate...

Rich Kokoska 1984 C25 FK/SR #4603 "Coolatta"

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 16:49:48

Another update. My attempt to drill/tap the backer plate went OK, but there are already 1/4" nuts glassed in behind the backer plate. I've decided to go ahead and grind out this glass as well as put in an inspection hole for the upper so I can put new 5/16" backup nuts in.

Thanks,
Don Jones

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 19:31:45

Don,

I cut the inspection plate hole with a Dremel tool and a rotary cutter bit.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

jheard
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 21:14:45

I had several of the old 1/4" bolts shear. I replaced them with 5/16" bolts with washers and locknuts. The old factory bolts were threaded into a bronze backing plate glassed into the transom. I drilled out the fiberglass and backing plate to accomodate the larger screws and threw the thing together with polysulphide. Sawing an inspection port in the cockpit with a dremel was worth the plunge.

Edited by - on

Bruce Ebling
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2003 : 21:46:51

I have also purchased the new gudgeons and plan to install both uppers and lowers. I have done this job earlier on an 85FK. I ended up cutting an inspection hole for access to the upper gudgeon. I used a small light to cover the hole. What have you guys used to cover the hole. I see that the threaded inspection plates only come in 4" size, which is still a little large for my tastes, any other ideas???
Bruce Ebling
89WK
Selah

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2003 : 13:51:41

Will my sarcasm never end...

This to Rich Kokoska about steering without a tiller:

John Muir (the sainted mechanic, not the naturalist) used to say that a properly set-up VW bug didn't need a steering wheel, you could just lean the way you wanted to go.

Yeah, right.

When my rudder snapped off at the water line (not gudgeon related) we were running downwind with the genny poled out and the main tied down with a preventer, wing-and-wing. Wind was 15kts and 3ft wind waves. We had just passed under a bridge. We immediately started turning into the wind, the genny collapsed, the pole flipped foreward and the genny began to wrap around the forestay.

I dropped the main, but the pressure of the wind kept part of it drawing. Wind is now on the beam. She steadyed on a course taking us directly toward a powerline base, you know those four huge concrete blocks they plant in the bay to set the tower on, less than 100 feet dead ahead. Beyond that was the bridge abutments another 100 feet. My two passengers were wide-eyed in either abject terror or undeserved absolute awe and confidence in my saltiness. At least neither of the gals uttered a sound. Had we lots of searoom, we would have had time, but...

It would have made for a good quare to pass a midshipman to lieutenant.

"Well, Mr. Midshipman Hornblower, you have two choices, you can try to clear away the fouled gear, trim the jibsheet to turn the bow, and hope the wind and current and way will carry you clear of the rocks in the 60 seconds you have remaining before you strike, or you can fire up the iron genny and drive your way clear, then have one of the ladies try to keep you somewhat straight downwind while you clear away the gear. What do you do, Mr. Hornblower, what do you do?"

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2003 : 14:34:14

Jim, the comment "oops" was probably not strong enough...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek
P.S. What did you do??

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2003 : 21:26:58

IRON JENNY! No hesitation here--I hadn't even read to the end of your scenario. I'd push her down-wind until past the obstruction. Next, I'd roll up the dacron jenny (forget about the main) so it wouldn't overpower the iron one. (Oops--no fair--roller furling.) Now, sailors, tell me how wrong I would've been.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 03/07/2003 21:32:14

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2003 : 23:07:13

"Just a little aside on the "hard to steer" part--in "The Everything Sailing Book", 2nd edition (isbn 1580626718) the authors point out sailboats can be steered by the sails alone and recommend the exercise of removing one's rudder to try it. The principle is simple: "to head up, trim the main, ease the jib, and heel the boat to leeward; to bear off, trim the jib, ease the main, and heel the boat to windward" (p.99)."

One of my favorite quotes (I don't know who gets credit) is: "In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they hardly ever are."

In ocean races I have skippered in the past, one requirement was for rigging to exist to prepare a spare rudder in case of failure. I passed the test by drilling holes in one of the plywood covers over lockers in the cabin. With large hose clamps, I demonstrated how I would attach it to the spinnaker pole, thus effecting a rudder that could be controlled from the cockpit. I am sure it would have to be lashed to the stern rail. If one were far from home so the iron jenny wouldn't do the job, this trick might get you home......Our boats don't track very well, and that is a prerequisite for the "steering with sails" theory....BTW: new gudgeons are going to be installed on my boat before my season begins!

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2003 : 00:48:49

<b>"What do you do, Mr. Hornblower, what do you do?"</b>

Personally, I would go with what Dave said and fire up the motor and then move to a safer area to deal with the other problems. But if there wasn't time to fire up the motor, I would through my best anchor overboard and pray that it holds.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2003 : 13:15:49

Weeellll friends, I'm glad you agree with my actions.

I did fire up the engine and got clear of the obstructions. The whiskerpole had to be untangled from the forestay wrap-around before I could roll in the genny. Next, the main got pulled down and secured with the gaskets.

Funny, I never did see where the broken-off part of the rudder went. It disappeared. Sunk?

Of all places to lose steering!!! Of course, ol' Murphy is a sailor.

All's well that end's well, they say. And no matter what, a day on the Bay beats almost anything else.

I now have a balanced rudder, backed thru-bolt gudgeons with bronze bushings for the pintles and my yuloh as a spare rudder!!

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

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