Association Forum - Greetings

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Greetings

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/28/2003 : 18:00:57

Please allow me to introduce myself....I'm a man of (former) wealth and good taste <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>. After owning a C30 for a while some 12 years ago we did the baby/house thing, and after chartering a few times with the kiddies we've decided to become owners again. Budget restraints (the aforementioned children and large mortgage) plus the fact that my industry is in the "head", the airline business that is, are in direct conflict with the desires...the ol' Hinckley taste on an Oday budget....The Catalina seems once again to be the answer. Since we have a Suburban and a BIG driveway, trailering is the answer. After researching how much "Yacht" one can sail at 55mph, the 25SK seems to be the solution.
I've been reading these threads for a while with great interest, and have learned an awful lot in a short time. (You're not scaring me with those SK keel disaster stories.....) I am now confidently looking at boats, and seem to be able to separate the junk from the nice onces, and attach reasonable prices to same. I can do work myself, in fact the C30 I owned I had to reinstall the engine mounts when I bought it. Woodwoork, fiberglass, electric, all no problem. And I'm looking forward to pulling it right into the "OR" at home....However, time constraints dictate a boat which is ready to go...
We plan on going sailing for spring break in The Keys, so let me know if you want to dispose of your well equipped/maintained (including the keel <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) C25SK/WK/TR/SR with Trailer....between 1982 and 1988, say around 10 to 13000.
Oscar 610-814-0883 oscar@noln.com

Edited by - Oscar on 02/28/2003 18:24:00

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 18:45:26

Welcome to the club! The Catalina 25/250 Association, not the baby/house thing or the industry in the tank comaraderie.

I don't have a boat for sale, I can only point you in the direction of the swap meet section of the Cat 25/250 web site.

Good luck. Welcome back to sailing.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 19:11:00

Welcome Oscar,

Anybody who quotes Mick Jagger is all right in my book.

I just got back from 2 1/2 weeks sailing in the Keys. I just bought an 89wk and then bought a new trailer for it. I had no problem towing it, even over the mountains in Tennesse with a full size chevy pickup with 4wd.
I even ramp launched and retrieved it several times to do some work on the boat. (this was my shakedown cruise)
Don't be afraid to look at the wing keels while you are looking at the swings.

What part of the Keys are you going to? I can recommend some good bars and restaurants and boat ramps for you if you wish. Mostly in the upper and middle keys. I avoid Key West. Too touristy and expensive. I go to the places where the locals go

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 19:40:36

Don't be afraid to look at the wing keels while you are looking at the swings.

I'd love one, they're hard to find......

What part of the Keys are you going to?

I'm going to read the cruising guide, might start in Marathon. I'll take you up on a list of the good ramps. Most important is whether you can leave your rig and find it in one piece when you get back...<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar

Edited by - Oscar on 02/28/2003 19:42:50

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 19:40:49

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 20:04:22

Hi, I just went through a similar analysis, except I hate trailering so I wanted a fin keel. $6500 can buy a real nice Catalina 25 - more boat for the money than any other possibility.

I searched Yachtworld http://www.yachtworld.com for you. In your price range (under $13K) there are 89 Catalina 25 and Catalina 22s for sale. You shouldn't have any trouble finding 5 or 6 in your area.

Edited by - on

Carl B.
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 21:30:40

Welcome, and good luck in finding the right boat for you and your family. Its sounds like you might have a lot of knowledge and experience to share with us.

"OBLIVIOUS" C25 '82 #3098 SR/FK/Trad

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 22:34:45

Welcome, Oscar... For the prices you mentioned, you can afford a later model wing keel, which draws only a couple of inches more than the fully raised swing. In salt water, it eliminates lots of maintenance issues (cable, pins, ball, winch) and corresponding risks, however small, of sinking due to a smashed trunk. The WKs are out there. Good luck, and keep us informed!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 22:39:47

Oscar, try these links and Good Luck:

YachtWorld http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/index.html.en

Boat Trader Online http://www.boattraderonline.com/newadsearch.html

Boats.com http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/quick_search.jsp

iBoats http://www.iboats.com/boats/marine--1/boats--10/sailboats--104/

Yahoo Classifieds http://classifieds.yahoo.com/

Catalinaowners.com http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/index.tpl?fno=20

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 01:19:48

John,
Is that (roughly) "Crimson Sailer?"
Da?

Doug - #1913 Noeta

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 18:36:03

Welcome Oscar.
You have chosen the right boat. Please think about the suggestions for a wing keel. Even if you find the boat of your dreams and it has a swing ... factor in the price of converting it to a wing later on. Most of us know that eventually you are bound to consider doing so.
I've had a swing for years... sail in thin waters... and the day I don't need a swing it will be replaced.

Tired of cranking, clunking and maintaining that swing thing.
Mark L.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 13:06:41

Hey Mark: With a sailing draft of 2'10" you can sail "thinner" with the wing than the swing (4-5'). Fully raised (not designed for sailing), the swing draws 2'8". Why not take the plunge now? <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 19:57:32

Dave, it is tempting but I use this keel to find the bottom of our shallow areas .. then raise it to get off. One of our members actually got his wing keel C-25 caught inside a submerged basement (foundation). He had a real time getting back out. If that isn't enough .. I've had my swing keel tangled in a submerged treetop as well.
It's Kansas sailing at its best!
Mark L.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 21:51:17

"Hey Mark: With a sailing draft of 2'10" you can sail "thinner" with the wing than the swing (4-5').

Firstly, if your sailing area is soooo thin that an extra couple of inches makes a difference, then what you need is not a keel boat, but a Hobie cat.

But seriously, if your sailing waters are thin, the best option might be a fin keel boat. How can this be, you ask?

I know I might be a bit biased since I currently own a fin, but my previous boat was a swinger so I can speak to both keel types.

As Dave mentioned, the swing keel has a sailing draft of 5', which is a foot deeper than the fin draft(4'). So if the sailing water is somewhat shallow, the fin will give you a little more room.

Next is the wing keel with a draft of 2' 10".

<img src="http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/wingcon8.jpg" border=0>

I don't know how far the winglets stick out from the keel, but as the boat starts to heel, the wing tips actually lower making the draft deeper. So, just because the wing keel starts out shallower than the fin, that benefit is reduced as the boat starts to heel.

Now let's see what happens when we start sailing the fin keel. As the boat starts to heel, the fin keel draft starts getting shallower due to the angle of the keel. The more the boat heels, the shallower the draft.

So when you consider all of this, the fin would be a logical choice for thin waters.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 22:11:53

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I don't know how far the winglets stick out from the keel, but as the boat starts to heel, the wing tips actually lower making the draft deeper. So, just because the wing keel starts out shallower than the fin, that benefit is reduced as the boat starts to heel.

Now let's see what happens when we start sailing the fin keel. As the boat starts to heel, the fin keel draft starts getting shallower due to the angle of the keel. The more the boat heels, the shallower the draft.

So when you consider all of this, the fin would be a logical choice for thin waters.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I appreciate you're attempt to enhance the market value of our fins, but:
1. When a wing keeled boat heels, the "fin" portion raises to an angle so the wing tips are probably not much, if any lower.
2. If you're sailing heeled in waters that thin, you're really asking for it! The thin water capability should only be utilized under power when exploring a gunk hole looking for a place to anchor, or trying to get to or from a shallow mooring.

Mark probably has the right solution--especially in fresh water. I'd just hate to hit a chimney or a Model A with my fin keel!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 03/02/2003 22:12:50

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 22:39:36

"When a wing keeled boat heels, the "fin" portion raises to an angle so the wing tips are probably not much, if any lower."

I don't know, Dave. Try picturing a right triangle superimposed on the hull/keel with the top of the triangle being the boats pivot point, then going down to the bottom of the fin, then 90 degrees out to the tip of the winglet. As the boat starts to heel, the triangle pivots. As the triangle pivots, the hypotenuse of the triangle(distance between pivot point and wingtip) starts increasing the draft, albeit not drastically, but increasing it nonetheless.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2003 : 23:46:01

[Even if you find the boat of your dreams and it has a swing ... factor in the price of converting it to a wing later on.

Hmmm, it so happens I'm planning on building a barn this summer, and 35 old oak barn beams and a multi ton hoist with I beam and two axis roller system are already in stock.....the way the plans are now I could fit a 25 in there.......
I also have some other ideas for modifications to improve trailering ease (mast raising and lowering and road-readying specifically), sailing performance and cruising comfort....stay tuned.

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 09:50:35

I have been sailing around the keys quite a bit. Everyone who has, is bound to get stuck in the receeding tide, or on the border of some canal (especially on the gulf side). The bottom is seldom hard, so chances of you damaging the keel (whichever you choose) are not that high. Another point to keep in mind is that on both the wing and the rasied swing the draft of the rudder is actually more than the keel. If the rudder hits bottom, it can severely ruin your cruise!

Happy sailing and have some conch fritters on us!

-marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 10:09:35

"If the rudder hits bottom, it can severely ruin your cruise!"

Here! Here! Been there..done that! <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 11:09:39

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Another point to keep in mind is that on both the wing and the rasied swing the draft of the rudder is actually more than the keel. If the rudder hits bottom, it can severely ruin your cruise!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Good point! Fins rule! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 11:21:11

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Try picturing a right triangle superimposed on the hull/keel with the top of the triangle being the boats pivot point, then going down to the bottom of the fin, then 90 degrees out to the tip of the winglet. As the boat starts to heel, the triangle pivots. As the triangle pivots, the hypotenuse of the triangle(distance between pivot point and wingtip) starts increasing the draft, albeit not drastically, but increasing it nonetheless.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
OK, Don, I'll take the bait... Try picturing that wing keel as the bottom of a pendulum that swings from a pivot point at about waterline level. As the boat heels, the top of the keel swings on an arc that raises it. The wing swings on a parallel arc, essentially tracing the arc (except that it is not curved). The net result, for a while, is that the draft probably stays about the same--until you're really burying the rail. Then you blast over an old Farmall tractor in that Kansas lake and tear your rudder off! <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/03/2003 11:24:17

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 11:28:30

Hey Marco

While in the Keys I had Conch fritters as an appetizer with just about every meal. One night I needed an Italian fix so I had Conch Marinara over pasta.

These were all at non-fancy restaurants where the locals can afford to eat. No fru-fru napkins like at the expensive tourist places, just great food at reasonable prices.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 12:26:30

Doug,
Kak vasy deela?
It could be translated that way. My wife says it's the title of an old story she likes, and translates it as "Red Sails". Of which I have one so far, the spinnaker.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 13:40:49

"As the boat heels, the top of the keel swings on an arc that raises it. The wing swings on a parallel arc, essentially tracing the arc (except that it is not curved). The net result, for a while, is that the draft probably stays about the same--until you're really burying the rail."

Dave,

Make a right triangle out of a piece of paper, lay the bottom of it on a flat surface(like a wing keel sitting on the bottom), hold the pivot point(top), then try to swing the pendulum. You will find that in order for it to swing around the pivot point, the winglet must dip lower than the original position. It doesn't matter if the pivot point is the top of the keel, the waterline, or the top of the mast.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

drttu
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
41 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 15:19:28

I also sail in a Kansas lake and I bought a factory retro fit Wing keel, based mainly on this forum. I had a Catalina 22 with a swing keel and it was something I mentally worried about, having the cable break, etc. For me it was more a mental worry than based on actual history. With that said, I think I am really going to enjoy the wing keel, at least I won't worry needlessly about the cable breaking.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 15:28:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
You will find that in order for it to swing around the pivot point, the winglet must dip lower than the original position. It doesn't matter if the pivot point is the top of the keel, the waterline, or the top of the mast.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Well, who am I to argue with a Marine Consultant... You're right--the tip of the wing will extend lower by the amount that it extends below the arc created from the pivot point. But it does matter where the pivot point is--the longer the radius, the wider the arc, and therefore the less the wing will project below it. Try it. That's why I mentioned the waterline, which may roughly double the radius compared to the top of the keel. (Of course, we're now arguing over a couple of inches of draft, which won't help with that Farmall. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> )

Sorry, folks--I'm done. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/03/2003 15:36:22

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.