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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/03/2003 : 18:26:14

Gentlemen - we are still looking for some "around the country" PHRF numbers for the C250 in all it's configurations. So far, not one C250 owner has replied <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> Don't ANY of you race?
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 00:00:31

Derek,

I grew up racing against Milby back at Brookville Lake. Even though it's been a while ago I remember my dad's Chrysler 26 beating him more often than not.

My point is, the lake I sail at here in Colorado does not have any type of racing let alone any kind of sailing association. I knew this when I ordered my c250. That is one of the reasons I got the 15 hp outboard, wheel steering, roller furling and 2 batteries. I love to race and would like too, but I have a c250 that is set up for cruising only and no place to race.

I've talked to some of the old salts at the marina about a sailing association and racing. I have been told it has been tried a few times since the lake opened but people have had very little interest.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 00:18:50

Bryan - thanks for the input! I know that not everyone races - different strokes for different folks - but it would be nice to hear from those who do, or just maybe there aren't any except on Canyon Lake!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Dragonfly
1st Mate

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USA
64 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 08:39:19

why would a racer have a C-250? Aren't these babies made for practical day sailors/weekenders? I think you would get more out of the J-boat site - now that's a "racer". (Just my 0.02)

C-250 WK #641
Flywater@sbcglobal.net
Lake Texoma, Texas

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 12:33:53

Derek,

I race out on Canyon all the time. . . unfortunately I'm usually the only one on the lake at the time!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> That's the good news/bad news about working the weekends: when I'm out at lake on the weekdays, I've got the lake all to myself; when I'm at work on the weekends, I miss out on the fun and commaraderie of having other boats around. Although, in the heart of the summer, as you well know, weekends at Canyon are filled with "bumper-to-bumper" jet-ski and ski-boat traffic.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Even though I've never really raced, I still have hopes of getting into it at some point, when my work schedule allows some Saturday sailing. Looks like you and Steve have a LOT of fun with it. Don't give up on me just yet.

BTW, love the new picture of "This Side Up" on your signature tag. However, I've been curious how you got a "front three-quarter" photo of her. Must have been taken from the committee boat. From what I've seen and heard, the only view any other sailboat has of her is of her stern!

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 13:24:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Even though it's been a while ago I remember my dad's Chrysler 26 beating [Milby] more often than not.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That's the way I remember it, too, Bryan.

The first time I ever raced, I was sailing my C-22. Your dad and I were beating to windward, closing on the windward mark. I was leading and your dad was close behind, but his track was more to windward than mine. He could fetch the mark without tacking, but I had to tack to get around it. When I tacked for the mark, your dad correctly protested that I tacked too close, and he had to alter course to avoid me. I crossed the finish line in first place, but the race committee properly ruled in his favor on the protest, and disqualified me. I learned my lesson and have never been protested or disqualified since then.

Back then, my racing was very inconsistent because I was still learning, and making a lot of mistakes. Actually, my racing is still very inconsistent, but for different reasons. Your dad, on the other hand, was extremely consistent. He never made it easy to beat him.

As I recall, at that time your dad was the best of the racers, and Denny Lyons was also very hard to beat in his C-22.

With your racing pedigree, it's too bad you can't find someone to race with you. If you can get some time off, why don't you pull your boat to the nationals this year?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 14:21:10

Bren - thanks for the compliment <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> Yes, indeed, Steve and I have a great time racing against each other - and ribbing each other unmercifully (which is almost as much fun!) We wait with baited breath for you to join us...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
The photo was actually taken from a competitor's boat while we were between races.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 18:01:35

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you can get some time off, why don't you pull your boat to the nationals this year?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I would love to do that!! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> But as I mentioned my c250 is not set up for racing and my wife does not share my love for sailing.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> She thinks the boat is a condo on the water. So my sailing season runs from Oct 1 thru April 30 or any summer day she is not with me. My 13 year old likes to sail and is learning but he has other interests i.e. football, baseball wrestling, weight lifting, sailing gets hard to squeeze in there.

I remember when I was his age I did not have all the activities available to me that he has. If by some miracle racing starts at our lake I'm sure I will be there.

Running my own business does not allow me too much extended time away and the extended time away I do get must be reserved for the family trips. Taking my family to Nationals would not be something that they would enjoy, like I would, but I am still working on it. My wife is from the Cincinnati area as well. I have mentioned dropping her and the kids off there and having my dad meet me in Syracuse IN. It would be like the good old days but this time is would be on my boat.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

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Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 21:48:11

Derek,

I just got home from my local club's montly meeting, and while there I was given a PHRF application and instructions. Once I get the results back I'll post them here. My next, first race is scheduled for March 15th. I hope this one doesn't get postponed.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>why would a racer have a C-250? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

While I am definitely not a racer, I do sail regularly. My local club has sponsored races with post-race cocktail parties. I figure that if I'm going to be out on the water anyway, why not participate? I think as long as the race is too serious, it is a great opportunity to have fun while becoming a better sailor. Besides...I've got the only 250 in the club and the president of the race committee sails a 25. I wouldn't want him to think I'm skeerd.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 10:16:21

Tray - go get him! (but make sure your PHRF is higher than his or you may have a problem<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2003 : 20:12:39

Well Guys, I do race my 250, It gives me an excuse to sail on Wed. and Sat. We have a club here on Lake Geneva,Wi that has about 20 boats. We sail 3 classes, Those that have PHRF below 160,Spinnaker class, and and those of us that have PHRF over 160. My 250 is rated at 225. We do pretty well as the 250 can headup a little better than some. It is great fun because we really are out to have fun.
Jack Schafer

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2003 : 13:33:10

Thanks Jack. Do you have a WB or a WK?
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2003 : 16:46:43

Guys,
The big problem with racing the 250 is that I'm convinced there are really no accurate handicap numbers established and probably never will be. There just aren't enough boats regularly reporting and many are on trailers and don't have the opportunity nor desire to race regularly. The boat is primarily a cruiser/trailer sailor. It wasn't designed as a one design racer. The other obvious problem is the different configurations (WK or WB), and if the reporting boat used the large light wind sail or not. Without a large reporting base, handicapp numbers are not necessarily accurate.
This summer we will finally have a second 250WB in our club, so that will be fun. We have a fleet of C25's that we race heads up. Our sucess against them is directly proportional to how hard the wind blows. We get hammered in light breezes (especilly downwind) when they are flying 150's and we are forced to use the 110. In heavy air we are competitive. We like 17kt+ because we really have a chance then. Actually, I feel like we've won the race if we beat all the Hunter 260's.
We intend to get the ullman drifter for this season for the light air...That'll help.

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC McCall, Idaho elv.5000'.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2003 : 11:35:15

Andy - your first paragraph really sums up the problem...wish I knew the solution!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2003 : 12:13:28

All you can do is use whatever information is available for the boat configurations that have been raced and reported, and use those as the "scratch" boats. For other boat configurations that have not been raced or reported, you have to compare them with the scratch boats and extrapolate what they would probably be, either adding or deducting a few seconds, as seems appropriate. You can't have a race without some sort of handicap numbers. If none have been established, then you have no alternative but to make your best guess. The numbers might not be perfect, but you have to do the best you can with the data that you have. In time, the accuracy of the numbers can be improved.

I believe the C-250 was designed to be a racer-cruiser, and that, in time there will be accurate numbers for all its configurations.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2003 : 14:07:14

Andy,

Your comments are interesting. We had been thinking the other way around based on the report from the '97 Nationals which saw the first c250s.

" The Catalina 250's started five minutes behind the Catalina 25's, but quickly reeled them in when the winds were light, proving they were a very fast light air boat, especially since most of the Catalina 25's were fully race rigged, and the Catalina 250's were basically cruisers with Dacron sails. When the winds picked up the last day, the Catalina 25's seemed to have more speed."

The report offerd that there were 4 c250s, 2 each model and the wings both had 150 headsails. It doesn't make clear whether all four "reeled in" the c25s or if it was the two wings with 150's which proved to be faster than the water ballast.

The '98 Nationals had one wing c250 and they all started together...but it only says that the lone c250 and the lone c25 tall rig won their class by default and doesn't make a comparison between the c25 and c250. Perhaps some one who was there can fill us in. Jeff Pierce, the founder of this web site won the standard c25 class that year.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 03/10/2003 14:15:15

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Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2003 : 14:19:29

Hi Derek,
I have a 250 wb. Our club uses the Median PHRF of all reported clubs. We then add or subtract for sails,wet or dry sailed, etc. the numbers come out pretty good for competition. We are pretty consistant with close competition to Capri 22, Cat.27, Capri 26. We are good up-wind and terrible down wind. I have the 155 drifter, but the new Ullman jib does better. My 225 rating does not account for the 155. I would have to give up 6 Pts.for it making me close to the Cat 27 rating. Our club has a web site,GLKCsail.org. if you would like to check it out. I don't know how current it is, but it looks good.
Thanks,Jack Schafer 2nd Wind

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2003 : 18:24:58

Arlyn and everybody
First of all our club is not a serious racing club although we have some very good and experienced sailors. Several of the C25's are race rigged although nobody flies fancy 3DL's or similar and a few have chutes. At one time or another, I've beaten them all except for one...(he's just better). I may be wrong, but I really don't believe the 250 is a faster light air boat than the c25. I would judge them close to equal beating and the 250wb might point higher (depending on the rig and keel config. of the c25) but running in light air (up to 10kt) a c25 with a 150 will say "see ya". With the small headsail in the light, we rarely run close to the wind. A little extra boat speed usually makes up for the greater distance and if we're lucky we'll catch some lift sooner than the competition. When its blowing CSCO Kid has more sail than it needs! Then the issue is figureing a sail setup to get max speed and not be overpowered. Our high mt.lake has very shifty conditions that'll either make you or break you in a race. Sometimes we'll start with a floater and finish with a toboggan ride.

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC McCall Idaho

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2003 : 08:13:24

I played around one day with a J24... we were down the lake with about 8-10 mph winds and I turned upwind and he turned to follow me perhaps 150 yard behind. We pressed upwind thru several tacks, I was single handed and using my 110. He had a 150 and racing sails. The windward shore was about 2 miles, and he remained four boatlengths back. So, he gained on me to weather but not that fast. Part of his difficulty in catching me was that he couldn't point as well.

Off wind was another story... he ran plumb away.

The 110 jib on the w/b is pretty much shadowed by the large main and only effective off wind in lighter air when running wing and wing. I'd try it on the course and see what happens. It might mean a little closer course off wind, but it might pay.

I've run wing and wing in some light air with the drifter up and 110 out the other side and it makes a lot of difference.

Maybe the 250 w/b needs to run in a spinnaker class and take the 110 jib out of the equation offwind to be compeditive ?????

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2003 : 16:22:47

Arlen,
I hope you're not suggesting that our boats are as fast as the J24 upwind. I love my boat and all it offers, but a J24 will kick it's stern on all points of sail in all wind conditions. Unless there's a real rookie at the '24s tiller. It is possible to beat 'em on handicap tho, I have.
I think broad reaching at 140-160 degrees with the reacher will get you to the mark faster than winging it. The jib is going to be blocked by the main anyway and it makes it too much of a hassel to gybe if you pick up a header.

Andy on CSCO Kid

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2003 : 12:35:54

Andy, I have to agree with Arlyn.

The J-24 has two main advantages over other 25' racer-cruisers. It is lighter in weight and the sails can be trimmed closer inboard. The light weight enables the J-24 to accelerate faster, but, in light and fluky air it won't coast in the lulls as far as our heavier boats. The ability to trim the sails more inboard enables the J-24 to point a bit closer to windward, but not much.

We have a very well-sailed J-24 on our lake, and, most of the time my heavier C-25 can stay close to her on the windward leg. Occasionally I can even beat her to the windward mark. When she turns downwind and pops her chute, however, she starts putting distance between us. After that, the challenge is to stay close enough to her to beat the J-24 on handicap. After she rounds the mark and starts to raise her chute, I try to get on her wind, to make it difficult for her to fill her chute and keep it filled, because the more I can impede her, the longer it takes for her to begin to draw ahead and make up her handicap.

Another good time to impede a faster boat is at the start. If you can get a better start than the other boat, you might be able to put her in your windshadow or otherwise force her to tack, which costs her time.

Like our boats, the J-24's maximum speed to windward is limited to hull speed, unless it can get up on plane. The light weight and shape of the J-24's hull enables her to plane more easily than our boats, but I don't remember ever seeing a J-24 plane to windward. The shape of the C-250 hull resembles that of the J-24 more than it does the C-25, so, in the right conditions it should plane more easily than the C-25. Overall, J-24s don't usually have much of an advantage over our boats going to windward.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 00:47:02

Steve,
I believe you can keep that Jboat reeled in with a tall rig and a 150. But I also believe you'd kick my but in light air. We have a tall fin keel in our club and I've beaten him heads up but he's not an experienced sailor.
If I'm sailing well and get a good start, the J24 in our club won't go over the horizon on me but I'll never beat him to the first mark. That is if the wind is consistent for both of us . The J24's handicap numbers are very well established so they reflect racing boats with all the go-fast gear. The guy in our club is not race tricked out to compete to those numbers, so he is very beatable on handicap. We have a J80 in the club as well and he usually finishes 30+minutes ahead of the second across but he rarely wins.
I like to race primarily to impove my skills. I love it. I don't know about you but I race every sailboat I see sailing near me, regatta or not. I think most of us do. If I start well, don't make too many tactical errors, don't knock a crewman in the drink and finish in the middle of the pack, I'm happy! And... I wouldn't trade CSCO Kid for a J24. A J27? maybe...AJ29? oh hell yes!

Andy Anderson on CSCO Kid

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 13:58:28

Andy,

I haven't raced C-250's enough to figure out for sure the type of winds in which they are most competitive, but they have beaten my tall rig boat enough times to convince me that they are very able racers. I'm guessing that, with a big, light-air sail and their light displacement, they will be very fast in light air, and that their 110 and their wide beam and flattish bottom will make them fast in heavy air.

I think the C-25 is, overall, a little faster than the C-250, but I wouldn't bet on it. Our C-25s are conventional designs, and we C-25 sailors have had a long time to learn how to sail them. Your C-250s are different designs, and you guys are still learning how to get the most out of that particular design.

As you say, if all things are equal, a J-24 will beat a C-25 or a C-250. But the thing that makes racing fun is that all things aren't always equal. Sometimes you are luckier than the other skipper, or he makes more mistakes than you, or you work harder to prep your boat.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 16:04:31

Above 18 knots... the c250 really starts to display a lot of leeway. Many owners might not pick up on it as the boat continues to point the same... but racers and cruiser will as they have marks they are trying to make. I know this to be true for the water ballast and expect it is even worse on the wing keel as it has more freeboard and less keel bite.

When I raced Hobie Cats... I could generally consider the lay line to be off the beam. In a breese with a c250... its common to need 115 degrees to make a mark. And, more than that if there is significant chop.

I know... I know... someone is thinking...I know very well that my c250 points at 45 deg...maybe even a bit tighter and doesn't need any 115 degrees. I simply say...anchor a mark, go directily down wind in an 18+ knot wind and tack when your beam to the mark and see what happens.

A big challenge is to keep the large rudder trimmed to no more than the 3-4 degrees leeward turn to compensate for weather helm. More than that and the lift to drag ratio is not optimum... less than that...and your giving away valuable lift to weather.

If serious about racing, the three degree marks should be on your wheel or tiller. Set the mast rake so that when the sails are trimed well...the tiller will be 3-4 degrees to weather to compensate for the weather helm and hold a straight weather course. Now the big challenge... keep the sheets throttled to hold that course by keeping the rudder on those marks as much as possible. The inclinometer will help here...as keeping the boats heel constant on good numbers will also keep the rudder trim. Use the sheets to keep the heel right.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 19:10:10

Steve
I fully agree on learning the boat. Its interesting to note, as well that the boat itself isn't nearly as important as how its sailed. I know two cases in our club. If certain individuals show up as crew or skippers on two different C25's, they will be 1st and 2nd in class. . The guys are really exellent racers. If if those guys aren't on those boats, we usually beat 'em. That's whats so much fun about racing and why newbies to sailing should start. Like I said, I race to learn besides having fun. I've owned my boat 4 seasons and am still learning how to make it more competitive. I'm sure its got potential to sail a hell of a lot faster than I've been able to sail it so far. The thing is a different design, has its own quirks and as you say, should be fast. The fun part is figuring it out. I went backwards for about half of last season..mistrimming the main (too flat in moderate wind). It's flustrating when you think your on to something and then find out its 180 deg.BS. That's how you learn tho..

Andy

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Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2003 : 00:54:55

I've been meaning to ask this question for some time. What do you mean by the rudder giving lift? If the rudder is symmetrical (and it is) how can it create lift on one side without creating sink (not sure that is the right term) on the other? I always thought for something to give lift it would need to be a foil shape.

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk
<img src="http://www.members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/fullsail.jpg" border=0>

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.