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Engine lost power

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5434 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/04/2015 : 08:08:02

Yesterday Sunday my wife and I did our annual springtime ritual of moving Passage from its winter storage yard on the hard to its summer mooring in the harbor. All told it's about 7nm down the Housatonic from Shelton's Long Hill section, past the I-95 and US Route 1 bridges, under the Amtrak drawbridge out to the mouth of the river and across a portion of open Long Island Sound to Milford Harbor. Beautiful day, light winds so we motored most of the way.
While back in the yard last week, changed engine oil, bottom unit oil, spark plugs and cleaned out the carburetor with carb spray. Ran the engine in the bucket so I could see the cooling jet spraying out. All set!
Then during our trip every once in a while the engine just quit at idle. It was like you pulled the lanyard dead man switch - she just stopped. It started right up again at high idle, but not so at low. So I fiddled with the idle screw as a stopgap, rechecked the lanyard clip and switch but it was good.
At one point the engine sort of bucked on acceleration. So I pumped the gas priming bulb. Stopped bucking immediately. Hmmm!
I replaced the gas line fitting a few years back when it would not run at all - had a bad seal and air got sucked into the carburetor instead of gas.
Any thoughts on a way to test the theory? I can order another 'nother connector but is this the deal? Just keep a spare handy when it dies, or is there some kind of preventative maintenance I can do to prevent it? Like grease the connector, spray rubber restorer in the fitting??? Guess I could just pump the bulb every so often.
The issue is we were in 2-3kt currents when the engine went dead. Good thing she restarted before we hit the bridge pilings!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 08:21:55

a bunch of years ago my engine behaved that way for a while, and based on recommendations I received here I replaced the hose from the tank to the engine, and that fix it right up. So I think it was a small amount of air getting in. Good luck!

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 08:23:40

It sounds like you've got a few years on your fuel line. It isn't that expensive to replace the whole thing. It will give you a spare if that doesn't solve it. I keep a spare on the boat. You could rebuild the carb, there are some internal things that could cause it, but I would be inclined to do the easy approach first and maybe dump some carb cleaner in the fuel.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4032 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 08:47:25

Bruce, Sucking air could be the problem but I would think it would effect the full RPM range and not just the idle. Possible small piece of dirt getting caught in the idle jet? This would effect just the idle as you said. The dirt could be a small piece of rubber from a bad hose also but you have that big filter so maybe the hose from the filter to the engine? I would start by removing the float bowl drain screw then squeeze the primer bulb so a good amount of gas runs out the float bowl. This should flush any particles of dirt or rubber out of the bowl. Then liberally spray carb cleaner into the drain hole trying to shoot upwards if possible. Close it up and start it up, Let it idle and see how it runs.
Afterthought, Clean the idle jet first before flushing. You can do this by removing the idle screw from the carb then using a piece of wire from a wire brush (mechanics trick, very thin)held by needle nose pliers gently clean the jet. Spray some carb cleaner into the jet and put the screw back in. Screw it all the way in and then back it out about 1 1/2 to 2 turns for a starting point on the idle adjustment.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/04/2015 09:03:23

jerlim
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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 09:18:31

We had a similar situation a few years ago. Had the shop do a sonic cleaning of the carb, and I replaced all fuel lines. Apparently it is an E10 issue and the jets in the carb get clogged w/ goo as the ethanol breaks down the hose linings.

Jerry

OLarryR
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3481 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 09:28:18

It could very well be the engine to hose fitting even if you replaced it a few years ago. The same thing happened to me awhile a go and then a second time. Had same symptoms both times similar to what you reported. Air was getting sucked in thru an infinitesimally small crack in the housing when viewing the 0-ring in the connector. It could be the hose as others have mentioned. In my case, during the past 10 years, I have had the same portable 3 gallon tank and fuel hose in use but have replaced the engine to hose fitting twice within 3-4 years period.

I had bought my Honda 9.9 in Dec '05/Jan '06 timeframe and it works very well. Prior to that, having bought my boat in SEP '05, the previous Honda was finicky. It was a 1994. It would stop running all of a sudden and then would not start. Sometimes would start after many tries and perhaps a 10 minute period and other times, not starting until the next day or so. It could not be trusted. I brought it to a reliable engine mechanic at a nearby marina (PO used this guy) and he had checked it out. He used his own fuel hose in the shop. He indicated that the old outboard had an electrical issue and indicated he had seen similar symptoms on some other outboards and it wound up being a hit and miss in replacing electrical internals. He indicated that I could go down that route to resolve the electrical issue but that it was one of those things that in subsequent troubleshooting it, much labor and parts may be involved. He indicated that before he starts going down that route with my outboard, I may want to consider buying a new outboard. The more I thought about it pouring dough into the old outboard versus having a brand new outboard - It reminded me when I had my brand new ODay 23 and it had a 7.5hp Evinrude that ran flawlessly. I decided to buy the new Honda and sold the old one for probably less than it was worth - $275 ! I had two guys show up at my dock at about the same time and let them debate who wanted to buy it. I started it up and as we discussed it, it eventually konked out after 10 minutes. The guy that bought it was use to tinkering with outboards and so he was going to take it apart and replace the electronics himself. I posted all about this back in the OCT-DEC '05 timeframe and most told me I should not have let the outboard go for just $275.

Anyway, I have been very pleased with my 2006 Honda all these years (except for that hose fitting). Based on your symptoms, it certainly does not sound like you have that electrical issue I had with the old outboard but likely it is the hose or the hose fitting which are relatively inexpensive to replace versus troubleshooting any other deficiency. One thing is for sure, if after replacing the hose fitting which is peanuts to buy, then the hose is next culprit. If you still have the same issue, well...you can at least then rule out the hose and fitting.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4032 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 09:44:02

quote:
It would stop running all of a sudden and then would not start. Sometimes would start after many tries and perhaps a 10 minute period and other times, not starting until the next day or so. It could not be trusted.

Larry, Had the same problem on my 97 9.9 Honda. Your mechanic was right on it being an electrical issue. I traced it to a break in a ground wire in the wiring harness. I had the engine running and found that if I touched the harness the engine would quit and wouldn't re-start. Wiggle it again and it would start. I replaced the harness (Very easy to do) Funny thing is that the break was in the middle of the wire inside of the covering so it wasn't visible. Sometimes it would make contact and would run then I guess from vibration it would loose contact an just quit.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/04/2015 10:25:29

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 10:18:37

What engine are we talking about?

weak or bad fuel pump?

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - redeye on 05/04/2015 10:22:08

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4032 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 10:28:21

Bruce's motor is a Honda 8hp.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 10:52:10

You Might change out the fuel pump impeller, not that I have done it...
Couldn't tell how difficult that is on a honda outboard.
Or you might look for a good honda mechanic.

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 11:43:47

My experience with fuel pumps its that they ether work or they don't. No middle ground. Theres no impeller, Its a diaphragm.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 16:24:54

Scott - Thanks for comment regarding the wiring harness. I guess I could have checked that out before giving up on it.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4316 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 17:21:03

Vent on the tank open?

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5434 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2015 : 21:22:41

Yes the tank vent is open, but thanks for that reminder. I started today by lubricating the connection with grease (like Vaseline). And it worked!
So tomorrow I'm going to buy a new gas line and end connectors and a fuel filter. I'll pull the bowl and check for crap floating around in it. I'll spray a little carb cleaner in the orifice. I rebuilt the carb 5 years ago so that's probably not the root cause. Hopefully one or all of these steps will help.
BTW, it's not an intermittent electrical problem.
The real tipoff for me was that squeezing the priming bulb fixed the problem immediately. Not enough suction.
I think the hose and connectors will do the trick.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2015 : 04:44:25

Mine does that occasionally when coming in at low speed as well. Usually primer bulb helps a bit. I always make sure that the tank vent is open so that not it unless it's clogged and not venting. This makes me want to go in and do some replacing.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

kc5dlo
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2015 : 06:04:53

low speed jet is clogged

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2015 : 06:58:28

I, too, suspect the idle jet. Carb cleaner won't necessarily solve it. There are lots of discussions on this iBoats forum. Search for "Honda 9.9 idle jet". (Same motor.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now boatless for the first time since 1970 (on a Sunfish).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/05/2015 18:05:46

islander
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Response Posted - 05/05/2015 : 11:47:01

quote:
I, too, suspect the idle jet. Carb cleaner won't necessarily solve it.

Thats why I suggested cleaning it with the piece of wire. Those symptoms Bruce described are classic idle jet blockage or partial blockage. Poor idle or no idle and engine shut down at idle. Hesitation when you go to throttle up but runs fine at any other speed. Hey, who knows...

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
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5434 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2015 : 19:24:25

Scott,
In my case, the idle screw is captive and cannot be removed. To get at the jet, I have to completely remove and disassemble the carburetor. Been there and done that a few years back. BTW, I used a piece of copper wire to clean it out.
I will have a little time to check it out on Wednesday, but I idled the engine for over 30 minutes yesterday and it did not falter.
On Sunday before I lubricated the connector, the sluggish acceleration was a surprise to me. I've never seen that before. It seemed that the engine would speed up, then run out of gas, then speed up, then run out, then speed up... When I pumped the bulb, the engine returned to normal and stopped surging.
More testing is needed before tearing up the engine.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 05/05/2015 : 21:29:44

Nothing like having the easy fix solve a problem! I'm a guy that doesn't stick wire into finely machined jet orifices, but to each his own. I don't know if adding a Racor or similar filter/water separator is necessary, but I stuck one in the system to eliminate a worry. Gunk could have frozen in the fuel nozzle and cracked it over the winter, or the crack could have been a random mechanical failure that caused my similar symptoms, but the filter prevents many problems that I might or might not have.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 20:48:20

My RACOR got cleaned out in November and I drained the carburetor bowl then too. You can't always get all the gas out of the orifices however. I think that the idle jet is clogged, so I will give the carb cleaner a try - I'll run the engine at idle and spray it time and again for a few minutes.
I came to this conclusion today as I was backing into a slip and the engine just quit at idle. Started back up after a few pumps of the bulb.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 06:09:07

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

...as I was backing into a slip and the engine just quit at idle. Started back up after a few pumps of the bulb.

Now I think we might be back to an air leak in the fuel line system--at the tank, the Racor, or pthe engine connection. It seems to me pumping the bulb doesn't solve a jet problem.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/07/2015 06:11:57

islander
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Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 11:15:21

I'm still staying with the engine is starving for gas. This sounds like a partial blockage. Pumping the bulb forces the gas into the carb through the partial blockage and then the engine will run but but without the extra pressure of pumping the bulb the engine eventually starves for gas again. An air leak would effect the engine at all RPM's and not just at idle. The air leak doesn't know the difference. Also an air leak would also leak gas especially when the bulb is pumped and pressurizes the fuel. Another couple of slim possibilitys would be a malfunctioning vent on the tank. You could loosen the cap and see if it runs. Engine idle set to low? Set high enough for neutral but to low when you put it in gear?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 05/07/2015 11:40:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 12:58:27

When mine behaved like that, I checked the fuel line, especially around the fittings, for dry rot cracks. Even the tiniest cracks will cause the engine to quit. If that's it, you can often cut a couple inches off the line, where the cracks are, and it might be adequate to get you back to the docks, where you can replace the line. I have seen the cracks so tiny that the line didn't leak fuel, but the leak de-pressurized the line, stopping the fuel flow.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/07/2015 13:01:15

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 14:44:47

Another possibility might be the gasket on the Racor, O-ring on a quick disconnect at the tank, or anything else that will break the suction. If the leak is upstream (toward the tank) from the bulb, squeezing the bulb won't push gas out of the leak, but it will suck air in, as will the fuel pump. (Flapper valves.) Higher RPMs will create greater suction, which might be too much for a tiny leak to break completely. At idle, it might be more likely that the leak will be able to relieve the suction, starving the engine.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/07/2015 16:00:13

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 16:05:44

quote:
Steve Milby... Cal 25 ("Fahrvergn�gen")

I never thought of a Cal 25 as looking like a VW Beetle, but both are fun to drive!

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