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Backing out of slip

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SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/01/2015 : 19:15:59

New member here. I own a 1986 Catalina 25, hull number 5339 fin keel, standard rig.
This has the universal M12 engine.
It's my first boat with an inboard engine.
I'm having a difficult time backing out of my slip. The propeller walk makes it difficult for me to do anything but roll out of the slip with the rear end moving to port(edit). I can't get any control over the boat until I am out of the slip and put it in forward.
Part of the problem is I have the old Morse two lever controls. One lever for the transmission, and a second lever for the throttle. When I'm using both hands to run the engine, I don't have a free hand for the tiller.
Next season, I intend to convert to a single handle control for the engine.
I also intend to build one of the balanced rudders. I'm hoping that will help.
I've already had the propeller installation analyzed, and it appears to be the proper size, mounted correctly.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Assuming the boat survives Joaquin (smile). I'm sure it will.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 10/03/2015 05:27:23

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/01/2015 : 19:57:25

Backing into a slip with an inboard is much easier than backing out. Why don't you try backing in so you can pull out in forward gear?

Are you sure your boat backs to starboard? Most inboards by far back to port.

If you know that your boat backs to port, then all you have to do is to line it up at the slip's opening at an angle so that, as it moves back and turns to port, it will back right into the slip. In this case, you're using prop walk to steer the boat. The boat doesn't have to have steerageway.

But, there's another way to do it. Catalina 25 and 27 inboards accelerate very quickly in reverse, and you can put it in reverse, give it a shot of throttle, and it will gain steerageway very quickly. Once the boat has steerageway, you can put the engine in neutral and back it into the slip, steering it with the rudder. Shifting it into neutral and letting it coast into the slip stops the effect of prop walk.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2015 : 20:07:34

Thanks.
You're right, it backs to port.

I had the throttle in low, almost idling while trying to reverse.
I'll try the quick shot of throttle in reverse and then drop it into neutral. It makes a lot of sense. That seems to be the better solution.
I think that will be a lot easier when I change the engine controls to a single lever.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2015 : 21:03:50

Yup--I wondered about the starboard pull!

But regarding your concern about two levers, I suspect you don't need to shift out of reverse--just start with the rudder to starboard, give a burst to get movement astern, and then idle down to minimize the prop-walk. Let the boat correct to starboard, and when you you're back on course, you have the option of giving it another short burst of throttle. At idle speed, the prop-walk shouldn't overcome the steerage from your motion.

Also, make sure you don't let the rudder fall over past about 45 degrees while backing--the water will try to push it there. Past that angle, it becomes more of a brake than a rudder, and steering no longer occurs.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now boatless for the first time since 1970 (on a Sunfish).

Ape-X
Admiral

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662 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2015 : 04:40:08

I've found out this season: Give a good burst of throttle, then throttle down, and shift into neutral. I Leave my tiller to Stbd, (stern walks to stbd) at about 45degrees. What was important was to get the revs up a bit to pull water over the rudder. Before with little throttle the walk was too pronounced to have any meaningful steerage.

We miss our FK 25, sweet sailing boat.

s/v No Worries, O'Day 28
PO Moe'Uhane - C25 SR/FK #1746

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2015 : 05:42:21

The trick to operating an inboard boat is to use prop walk when it can help you, and to minimize or eliminate it when it is an impediment to you. If not for the prop walk effect, there are maneuvers that you wouldn't be able to perform efficiently, in particular, rotating the boat almost in place.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4034 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2015 : 08:33:58

Did the boat come with a tiller tamer? With one you can set the friction to hold the tiller where you want it while freeing up your hands for the engine controls.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

hewebb
Admiral

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761 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2015 : 04:55:50

I use quite a bit of throttle to get the boat moving then go to neutral or some times to idle and that seems to work most of the time. Seems that there is a point where throttle and rudder will work together and you can go straight back and occasionally I find that. If you have a tight area to back to starboard in you might loop a line around something on the dock to hold the stern. Make sure you can release it easily and keep it out of the prop. I did that in one marina I was in. I have not needed both hands to work the engine with the dual controls after a little practice you will be able to do that easily.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2015 : 10:28:43

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Backing into a slip with an inboard is much easier than backing out.

Steve, I've heard this from time to time and always wondered about it because I've had an easier time backing out of slips. Please would you elaborate?

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2015 : 11:16:34

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Backing into a slip with an inboard is much easier than backing out.

Steve, I've heard this from time to time and always wondered about it because I've had an easier time backing out of slips. Please would you elaborate?

I was referring to boats with inboard engines. With an inboard engine, the prop is fixed. You can't turn it and direct the thrust like you can with an outboard engine. By aiming the prop's thrust, you can steer an outboard powered boat either left or right at any speed. You can't do that with an inboard. When you try to back up slowly with an inboard, it won't back straight, or to the right. It will only back to the left, until the boat gains enough speed to have steerageway. When I moved from an outboard powered boat to an inboard, I had to learn a new set of techniques for maneuvering the boat. Just imagine having to maneuver a boat that will only back in one direction.

If you're backing into a slip with an inboard powered boat, all you have to do is to position the boat at the opening to the slip so that, when the boat moves back and to the left, it will move back into the slip.

Nevertheless, all boats, whether inboard or outboard powered, seem to maneuver better in forward than in reverse. The prop is more efficient in forward than in reverse. That's why so many people who use outboards complain so often that their props don't have much thrust in reverse.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2015 : 09:52:43

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

Backing into a slip with an inboard is much easier than backing out.

Steve, I've heard this from time to time and always wondered about it because I've had an easier time backing out of slips. Please would you elaborate?

I was referring to boats with inboard engines. With an inboard engine, the prop is fixed. You can't turn it and direct the thrust like you can with an outboard engine. By aiming the prop's thrust, you can steer an outboard powered boat either left or right at any speed. You can't do that with an inboard. When you try to back up slowly with an inboard, it won't back straight, or to the right. It will only back to the left, until the boat gains enough speed to have steerageway. When I moved from an outboard powered boat to an inboard, I had to learn a new set of techniques for maneuvering the boat. Just imagine having to maneuver a boat that will only back in one direction.

If you're backing into a slip with an inboard powered boat, all you have to do is to position the boat at the opening to the slip so that, when the boat moves back and to the left, it will move back into the slip.

Nevertheless, all boats, whether inboard or outboard powered, seem to maneuver better in forward than in reverse. The prop is more efficient in forward than in reverse. That's why so many people who use outboards complain so often that their props don't have much thrust in reverse.

Thank you Steve!

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2015 : 10:00:50

You're welcome.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

SKS
Navigator

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161 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2015 : 13:19:39

Do you think a balanced rudder would be of benefit ?
I'm considering making one this winter.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2015 : 15:26:15

quote:
Originally posted by SKS

Do you think a balanced rudder would be of benefit ?
I'm considering making one this winter.

Not really, except it will tend to pull the tiller a little less hard to one side or the other when backing. It won't change the steering performance. But to repeat myself (I guess), don't let the rudder go all the way over--that will reduce the steering effectiveness.

SKS
Navigator

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161 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2015 : 15:35:05

Thanks so much to all who replied.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2015 : 15:53:57

IMO, the non-balanced rudder is slightly more efficient than a balanced rudder. The primary benefit of a balanced rudder is that it reduces the amount of pressure that you feel on the tiller due to weather helm. It doesn't reduce weather helm, but it reduces how hard you need to pull on the tiller to hold the boat on course. The cause of excessive weather helm is an imperfectly tuned rig and/or imperfectly trimmed sails. If you're a good rig tuner and sail trimmer, you should be able to get the best performance out of a non-balanced rudder. Most sailors will probably enjoy the balanced rudder more, and in any case, the difference in performance is so slight that it will only be important to serious racers.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Voyager
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Response Posted - 10/04/2015 : 16:57:33

Hey SKS,
Sounds like you have one of the rare C25s with an inboard. Sweet!
Congrats on the new boat.
I'm planning to visit the Norwalk Islsnds next weekend on my Annual Columbus Day outing with my son. We'll probably stay over at Shea Island on Saturday or Sunday night. Let me know it you plan on sailing next weekend.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2015 : 06:23:54

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

IMO, the non-balanced rudder is slightly more efficient than a balanced rudder...

...except that the balanced rudder Catalina started using in the later '80s, which I switched to, is a NACA foil design that is purported to reduce turbulence and thereby drag. The evidence for me was the elimination of "fluttering" that I often felt on the tiller of the original rudder. I can't say that I gained or lost a fraction of a knot or turned with less drag, but between the steadiness and the "power steering" effect, it was a very nice upgrade.

But for backing out of a slip, I doubt makes any difference.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2015 : 06:44:47

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

IMO, the non-balanced rudder is slightly more efficient than a balanced rudder...
...except that the balanced rudder Catalina started using in the later '80s, which I switched to, is a NACA foil design that is purported to reduce turbulence and thereby drag. The evidence for me was the elimination of "fluttering" that I often felt on the tiller of the original rudder. I can't say that I gained or lost a fraction of a knot or turned with less drag, but between the steadiness and the "power steering" effect, it was a very nice upgrade.

But for backing out of a slip, I doubt makes any difference.

I bought my boat new, and the original rudder didn't flutter until it was nearly 20 years old, and water had begun to intrude into it and caused it to warp. None of the many C25 sailors and racers that I knew complained about flutter, and I don't believe it was characteristic of an undamaged original rudder.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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