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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

25/250 PHRF Numbers

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jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/14/2003 : 15:45:52

Ok, ok, so I have a 25 not a 250 - but I have some numbers...

These are the base PHRF numbers for the PHRF-New England fleet. You'll note with pride that the 250's are rated faster than the 25's. This doesn't jive with my experience and if any of you are in the Portland area I'd be happy to prove it. :0 (Conditions are pretty much 12-15 knots from the SSW day in and day out, storms excluded)

Actually, the 25's are rated as too slow relative to the fleet. We hope to capitalize on that error this season. I don't know how the 250's do relative to the fleet.

CATALINA 25 FK 234
CATALINA 25 IB 240
CATALINA 25 TM 228
CATALINA 250 KEEL 216
CATALINA 250 CB 225
CATALINA 250 WK 228

Justin

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 16:27:19

I'm not sure what were seeing here.

c250 Keel is 216
c250 WK is 228

There has never been a fin keel c250 report to this forum and I'm unsure if one has ever been produced.

If not, then what boat does Keel relate to?

I would be surprized to see the CB less than the WK as I think the wing while giving up a little to weather, likley gains more than that offwind to the CB.

Clarification needed...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 16:31:32

No clarification available, I'm afraid. I'm not very familiar with the 250 but I thought there was a fin, at least very early on. I thought I remeber seeing sales literature or something. These numbers come from the PHRF-NE website as the valid 2002 base handicaps. They may totally theoretical without empiracal adjustment. This would make sense given the number for the 25. If so, the handicaper may have looked at specs for a 250/fin that was never produced.

Justin

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 17:18:14

Justin - those are interesting numbers! I'd love to race with that 234 instead of my 221 <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> IMHO the 250's are indeed slower than the 25's. With all due respects to Steve, there is not one on the lake that can stay with me in ANY conditions (including drifter to light air).
What happened at that Nationals I have no idea - wish I had been there...The last time I raced against them I voluntarily dropped my PHRF to 161 and still beat them handily - and they are competent racers! Admittedly, I'm running a full 155% genoa and they have 110% to 135% jibs - but that rig is what they are rated on!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2003 : 14:24:25

Jandrus,
I don't know what that C250 "keel" is either. I'll say I'd like to own one though, too bad they don't exist. The other numbers for the 250 I believe represent consistantly well sailed races. Whoever's posting them is a good racer (a hell of a lot better than I am). I fully agree with Derek, I've raced C25's heads up in every one of our club races and the times I've beaten them have when I've been very lucky, sailed very well, had 15+knots of wind, and there are two C25's in our club that I've nerver beaten.
There must be someone out there very serious about racing a 250. I talked to Gary Swenson at Ullman last week and he said they were building a full set of racing sails for somebody on the east coast with a 250. I'm really not sure that would be worth the investment, but who knows? Swenson knows a lot about the 250, works with Catilina. A good guy to talk to.
I'm getting the 1.5 oz reacher from Ullman for this season. I'm tired of getting my ass kicked on light wind runs with the 110.

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC McCall Idaho elv.5000' 45N lat.

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 00:26:56

My yacht club awards my 250WK a PHRF of 240...I need all of it to compete against Derek's C25....He wins consistently on our Lake with extremely variable winds, both in velocity and direction. I beat him by more than 5 minutes in very light air 1 time. It will take me at least two more years to understand the technique and tactics to be able to really compete with Derek, I have 1 year of racing under my belt but Derek is helping me learn to compete...he realy enjoys a good race and he is constantly trying to educate us so he can be challenged. It is really hard to establish a national PHRF for any boat...it should be established by the region or waters you race on, the sailing conditions and the boats you compete against are very different in each area. A smart committee will take all the factors into consideration if they want to promote racing and keep sailors interested. If a sailor never has an opportunity to win then he/she will eventually not participate. Close Compitition is fun...winning by several minutes every time out is not much fun either. Money can help close the gap by buying state of the art sails and learning the latest rigging techniques, but most of us got into this for the love of sailing, cruising, and sharing with family and friends so spending lots of boat units for racing is not what we are about.... Philosophizing about cold or warm beer is a bit more important,
have fun sailing
Steve
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce38b3127cce91693ba9c0c50000001610" border=0>
This Picture shows the 250WK "Moon Chaser: crossing the finish line First, ahead of Derek's "This Side Up" who is last in the the picture. Derek's fleet started 5 minutes ahead of Moon Chaser's cruiser fleet.
<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/forum1.gif" border=0>

Edited by - ssteakley on 03/19/2003 00:36:25

Edited by - ssteakley on 03/19/2003 00:37:11

Edited by - ssteakley on 03/19/2003 00:38:09

Edited by - ssteakley on 03/19/2003 00:39:20

Edited by - ssteakley on 03/19/2003 00:40:42

Edited by - ssteakley on 03/19/2003 00:41:27

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 11:54:41

Very nicely said Steve.But did you HAVE to post that pic again...<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>
See you at the Racing Seminar on Saturday.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 12:04:53

We have talked about PHRF numbers. Is there any other system out there? If I'm not mistaken the Brookville Lake racers use the Port smith numbers (I think that is what it is called)

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 13:14:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If I'm not mistaken the Brookville Lake racers use the Port smith numbers <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Bryan -

You're right. At Brookville Lake we use Portsmouth numbers. The numbers that we use are online at the BLSA website. Our numbers are listed at: http://home.fuse.net/blsa/Racingstart01.htm

Those numbers are rather favorable to C-250s. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> Harumph!

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 13:25:36

Steve,

What is the difference between the numbers? How do you convert one to the other to compare them?

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 13:45:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What is the difference between the numbers? How do you convert one to the other to compare them? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't know. I have heard that there is a conversion formula, but I doubt that is true. It's my impression that the Portsmouth numbers are created from a completely different base of data.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2003 : 14:18:12

I also believe that the Portsmouth system is usually used for multihulls and planing monohulls. I have absolutely no experience with it!<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 21:37:32

Guys
Our club uses that system. Corrected time= Elapsed time/PN x100.
ie: if my elapsed time is 1hr 30 min, my corrected time is 90 mim/95 x 100 or 1hr.35 min.
The PN for the C250 is (95) Parenthesis meaning very few reporting. The PN for the C25 standard/wing keel is also 95. I think the tall mast C25 is around 87. I don't have the list so I'm guessing. If half of the race is in winds greater than 15kt the PN for the C250 drops to 93 but the C25 PN stays the same. I've really gotten screwed a few times on that rule because its the race committee's call and they guess. There is no distinction between the C250WB and WK.

For a boat with a PN of 100, the Corrected time = elapsed time. We have a Flicka in the club and his PN is 106 or 108 or some damn thing. He always follows the fleet to the finish line but he's damn hard to beat!
Actually, its not a bad system. I just think the PN for the C250 should be about 97...heh heh...

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC McCall, Idaho Elv 5000' 45N lat. frozen solid!!

C

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