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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Yamaha 9.9 4 stroke starting issue - AGAIN

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/13/2016 : 17:05:21

During the past 3-4 years when I would push the starter button the outboard would spin a few degrees until it hit the compression stroke. Was able to tighten wing nuts on battery cables and that would resolve it.
This year, after cleaning the cable ends and battery posts, then torqueing nyloks instead of wing nuts - now starter will not spin past the compression stroke.
I have 13+ volts at the battery but only 5 volts at the starter motor.

Anyone ever experience this?

1989 C25 TR/WK, #5822
1973 McVay Minuet 19
1975 Jester 12
1981 C25 SR/SK, #2428
1981 C22 SR/SK,
Tanzer 16
Sunfish

"There is nothing, absolutely nothing half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." Kenneth Grahame

Edited by - OJ on 07/14/2016 07:25:59

islander
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Response Posted - 07/13/2016 : 17:32:05

Try removing the cable from the starter motor that comes from the battery and then test the voltage coming through the wire. Might have a possible break or corrosion inside the cable. If you don't have the 12+ volts at the engine side of the cable, Replace the cable. If you have a switch you will have to test each wire run, Battery to switch, Switch to starter etc. It could also be the switch itself not making positive contact. When trouble shooting electrical issues it's best to isolate the problem by disconnecting all or the components then start at the battey. Keep testing the voltage as you hook up each component until you hit the voltage drop. I would also put proper metal wing nuts back on the battery for a better connection. That could possibly be the problem

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 07/13/2016 18:59:11

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2016 : 19:56:41

I'm thinking "nylock" insulates the nut from the battery post. How about regular nuts (with lockwashers if you wish)?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 05:10:04

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I'm thinking "nylock" insulates the nut from the battery post. How about regular nuts (with lockwashers if you wish)?

A little voice in the back of my mind says the same . . .

islander
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Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 06:18:00

You could use regular nuts if you wish but I do prefer wing nuts. They can be disconnected faster in an emergency situation without tools or wrenches to find. Might be the difference between saving the boat or jumping overboard. Anyway replace those plastic nuts first and see if that solves the problem.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

OJ
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Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 07:36:51

quote:
Originally posted by islander

You could use regular nuts if you wish but I do prefer wing nuts. They can be disconnected faster in an emergency situation without tools or wrenches to find. Might be the difference between saving the boat or jumping overboard. Anyway replace those plastic nuts first and see if that solves the problem.

Have been using wing nuts and hand tightening them - which is/was part of the problem. Have installed a double fuse block for protection (note the nuts with lock washers).

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Terminal-Block/dp/B002INJXO6

Yamaha confirmed that there should be 12+/- volts at the starter. Because the cables from the outboard do not reach the battery switch, I have extension cables - probably with inadequate and/or corroded ring terminals. Going shopping for heavy gauge ring terminals.

Scott, thanks for guiding me towards checking voltages at different points.

Edited by - OJ on 07/14/2016 07:43:39

jduck00
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Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 08:48:30

Don't discount high resistance in your cabling and connections. With no current flowing, the voltage at the starter will be about the same as the battery. If you have corrosion that leads to high resistance or if the wire is too small, you will get a significant voltage drop from the battery to the starter. If you have a voltmeter, measure the voltage across the starter while trying to start it. You shouldn't drop more than a volt or so.

Here's some approximate math to chew on. Not getting into motor start curves, just the basics. Figuring a starter that draws 75 amps and the formula V=I/R, the starter has a resistance of 0.17 Ohms assuming you have a 13V charge on the battery. If you want to make sure you stay at 12V during the start, you need to make sure you have 1/13 of the voltage drop across the cabling. That comes out to about 0.013 Ohms. Take #6 at 20C for example, it has resistance of ~0.4 Ohms per 1000'. Say 25' leads, that's 50' of cable from the battery and back, have to remember your return path. That puts you at 0.02 Ohms just in cable. Figure in some connections, and its easy to get enough voltage drop to give the starter issues.

I use the same fuse blocks and love them. Makes connecting several things to the battery a lot safer. I'm a bit of redneck, and when I built my cables I never figured I would be in salt water. I used #4 welding cable. Not the best since I'm salt now. I keep an eye on the terminations. Will probably have to cut them and redo next year, but its lasted 2 years so far with no issues.

Long answer I know, but ask an electrical question, and that's what you get from a sparky.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Edited by - jduck00 on 07/14/2016 09:03:02

jduck00
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Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 09:27:34

As a follow up to your 5V at the starter, I'm assuming you are making that measurement with the starter engaged. If not, there is a short somewhere. If current isn't flowing there wont be any voltage drop.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

OJ
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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 10:16:24

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

I used #4 welding cable. Not the best since I'm salt now. I keep an eye on the terminations. Will probably have to cut them and redo next year, but its lasted 2 years so far with no issues.

Thanks for the info - all good stuff.

You are aware of Ancor marine grade wire? All strands are tinned. Also heat shrink with adhesive on the inside?

Edited by - OJ on 07/14/2016 10:18:02

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 10:27:09

A detail regarding the math: I recall the main fuse in a Yammie 9.9 is a 20-amp, so it would seem the starter draws a small fraction of 75 amps.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

jduck00
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313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 17:32:05

Yep. I looked at Ancor wire, but being I was on a fresh water lake I went with welding cable. Was a whole lot cheaper. Wish I had thrown down the boat bucks now. It is what it is. I did heat shrink it, but I'm starting to get the green creep. It would have probably lasted a whole lot longer in fresh water. Two years in the salt and I'm starting to see it now. I've got plenty to cut off on both ends and solder is cheap so I'll probably just fix it every few years.

The starter cables shouldn't be fused at the outboard. The hot lead should connect directly to the solenoid and then the 20A fuse comes off of that. From a little trial and error, I found out that my older 9.9 pulls somewhere in the 75A range. I've got it fused at a 100A now and I haven't blown a fuse since.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2016 : 18:15:13

Tested the wires at the starter relay, 13+ volts. Starter still couldn't push past the compression stroke.

Out of frustration I pressed the starter button a few more times and the flywheel started turning over and over. Did this several times with no getting stuck on compression stroke.

Someone at the marina said while I may have 13 volts, what about the amps. My multi meter only measures up to 10 amps. Suggestions?

Or this is related to something inside the outboard - corrosion perhaps. Will discuss with Yamaha factory trained dealership tomorrow.

Edited by - OJ on 07/14/2016 18:15:37

jduck00
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Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 05:35:50

It will take a clamp on meter that can handle DC. Most of the lower priced ones only measure AC. That and unless you need real accurate measurement at low levels, I would stay away from the built in current measurement. I know they are fused, but I've smoked a couple of meters over the years using the 10A built in. Never use it anymore.

Not promoting the product, but by the specs it would do what you want. https://www.amazon.com/Auto-ranging-Digital-Clamp-Meter/dp/B001VGND88

Have you pulled the starter and inspected the brushes and commutator? I've had issues in the past with starters and usually dressing the brushes and cleaning the commutator fix the issue. If you have brush debris buildup it can short the commutator. The starter will still spin, but you lose a lot of torque. Being that you can bump yours and get it spinning, I would bet a few bucks that two commutator pads are shorted together. Try this. Get it stuck again. Turn the starter by hand a few degrees forward. (Might be easier said than done) Give it another shot after that. If it works, that would confirm shorted pads.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2016 : 07:26:30

Thanks Jeremy for spending the time to write all of the above.

After reading your comments about possible dirt on brushes and commutators - certainly sounds logical.

Will see what happens in the coming weeks and may source a service manual in the meanwhile.

GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/16/2016 : 08:56:54

Sounds like a dirty or corroded compression release valve. If it's not functioning properly you would get these symptoms.

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2016 : 11:36:14

quote:
Originally posted by GaryB

Sounds like a dirty or corroded compression release valve. If it's not functioning properly you would get these symptoms.

Ahhh, this topic has been raised in the past. I need add it to my list when I take the motor to the dealer this coming off season.

Edited by - OJ on 07/16/2016 11:36:39

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