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Replacing an interior bulkhead

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Manitou
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 03/20/2003 : 20:25:58

After a long and wet winter of not wanting to look too closely at a water leak I have finally faced the truth and the truth is that the main chain plate has been leaking badly for some time and it has rotted much of the wood surrounding the bolts on the main transverse bulkhead.

In surveying the damage I think the easiest and most effective way to solve the problem is to replace the entire bulkhead on both sides (yes the other has been leaking as well). I thought about just cutting the outboard two feet of the bulkhead away and replacing that, but it seems that there is little extra effort involved in just replacing the whole thing.

The question I have (besides being open to any suggestions I have not thought of) is where do I find full size templates for bulkheads? Is there an aftermarket sourse for these blueprints or does Catalina Direct have them? The bulkhead is in fair enough shape that I could trace it, but I don't know how well it will come out. It would be nice to have the plans in hand so I do not have to worry about it.

As far as I can tell the water was leaking through the deck plate so I do not believe (famous last words) that there is any significant damage to the deck core.

My vision of this project is to remove the mounting screws holding the bulkhead in, pull the wood, cut a new piece and finish it, drill it, replace it and remount the vertical strap for the chain plate. If anyone has done this or knows of anything that will make the job significantly more complicated, I would appreciate thier thoughts. Since the smaller starboard bulkhead is also weakened from water damage I am planing on replacing it while I am at it. Lastly I will pull, clean, remount and seal the through deck fittings and be done. Sounds simple doesn't it :)

All thoughts, suggestions and 'bewares' are most humbly solicited.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 21:09:20

There are a number of resources that describe the use of a "tick board" to take off dimensions of bulkheads in place. One I know of is in the book "This Old Boat" by Don Casey. I THINK I remember that Bruce Binghams "Sailors Sketchbook" also had illustrated instructions. You can buy these, of course (and I recommend them) but if your local library has inter- or intra-state service you may be able to order it that way. Worst case, get large cardboard, "spile" for it, cut and try with doorskin until satisfied, god bless, fair winds, ron srsk #2343 Orion 1981 in SW FL

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 21:41:47

Manitou,

I'm sorry to hear about your bulkheads. Let that be a reminder to the rest of us to check our chainplates soon. (I pulled, inspected, and rebedded mine two years ago.) <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My vision of this project is to remove the mounting screws holding the bulkhead in, pull the wood, cut a new piece and finish it, drill it, replace it and remount the vertical strap for the chain plate. If anyone has done this or knows of anything that will make the job significantly more complicated, I would appreciate their thoughts.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Well, I can't say as I've removed that bulkead yet, but I've thought about the problem. My bulkhead isn't rotted, but I'm planning to refinish my interior woodwork. That led me to considering which pieces would be easier to remove for refinishing.

It looks to me like just about all of the interior woodwork, including the bulkheads, can be dissassembled by just removing enough screws and maybe pulling a few tiny rusty staples. In a few places, the screw heads are covered with plugs or bungs. Those are a little bit more work, but no big deal once you've done a few. If your old pieces aren't rotted into mulch, then I don't see why they wouldn't work just fine as patterns. As for duplicating the various screw and bolt holes, I'd use the mating piece as a drill guide where practical (such as the chainplates that started this adventure). Where you can't poke a drill through the mating part of the boat, go ahead and use the old bulkhead as a drill template.

Surely this is stating the obvious, but the mast needs to be down before you go removing anything structural. However, if it's convenient to leave the boat in the water, I'd do so. I expect the hull would be more evenly and naturally supported by water than by a trailer. The point being to not build in any distortion when fitting the new parts or reassembling the interior. If your original, or perfectly duplicated, parts don't go back in as neatly as they came out, you might consider the possibility that the boat sagged a bit while your back was turned. Judicious use of a jack, come-along, spanish windlass, etc. should easily shove anything that moved back where it was. I wouldn't expect much distortion, these are really stiff boats.

For materials, teak venier plywood is available special order for a price. Be sure that whatever plywood you use is at least exterior grade. If you can't find or afford exterior grade teak venier plywood, maybe you could use marine grade douglas fur plywood, WEST the surfaces, and paint it white or off-white to match the interior fiberglass surfaces. I think white bulkheads with varnished trim look pretty classy.

In this sort of forum, it can be hard to guess how much detail to include in an answer like this. Let me know if you have questions about what I've posted.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Manitou
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 22:30:51

Leon,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I am reasonably experienced with woodworking and general maintenance, but faily new to sailboats. This is my first one and was bought as a 'learning' boat. It is a '79 and seaworthy, but has its share of required TLC. I have not done myself any favors by neglecting the problem as long as I did. I had a leaky window when I bought the boat a couple of years ago and worked that issue for a while. When I found water pooling after a prolonged rain I assumed that the window was still leaking.

Anyway, it seems like we are on the same page as far as our interpretation of the project. I had originally hoped to leave the mast up and let the opposite main with the four lowers secure it, but I think you are right and the safe thing to do is step it down and have one less thing to worry about.

Since the boat is a fixed keel, a trailor is not an option, but I do have to put it on the hard to refinish the bottom. That might be a good time to replace the bulkhead. The concern I have now is that I am pressed for time (I am an airline pilot and still active reserve in the navy so times are busy) and it may be a few days before I can get to the project. The real problem is that during a wicked storm last week the port upper turnbuckle broke (actually a very bizzare case, I went to check the boat and found the port upper free at the base, the T-bolt in the shackle, the last inch of the swadged threads broken off and the turnbuckle itself lying on the deck and no sign of the missing threaded piece. I wonder if someone tried to 'borrow' a piece from my boat and was interrupted???). So now all I have supporting the mast are the four lowers and the starboard upper. The boom is off so it is just the mast and I hope it can hang on until I can fix everything.

Since the boat is 23 years old and a 'project' I am interested in making the repairs as inexpensive as possible so I would appreciate any information on what the best solution is for the replacement wood. I would like it to look decent, but it does not have to look 'factory.' Any idea where I can price the teak plywood to get an idea which way to go?

On a bit of different topic I think I should look seriously at replacing the standing rigging. I had the mast down last week to run a topping lift and lazy jacks and noticed a few meat hooks in the wire and one end terminal that has a crack starting at the mast head for the port upper. I priced a replacement set at C-Direct and was surprised to see a price of over $500. Any thoughts on a cheaper way to go? Overall the wire looked decent, but the crack, the couple broken strands and the belief that it is likely several years old and has been afloat in salt water for the last 5 years or more makes me think that it is necessary to do something about it before this season starts.

Thanks to all that have replied and I am anxious to read any thoughts or suggestions.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2003 : 23:23:28

A while back, David Luckenbach was selling used C25 parts, including bulkheads for $25 each.

<img src="http://www.sailingtexas.com/picbulkheadstarboard1.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://www.sailingtexas.com/picbulkheadport1.jpg" border=0>

Here's the link.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/bbulkheads.html

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 03/21/2003 13:11:35

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 00:12:58

Manitou,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Since the boat is 23 years old and a 'project' I am interested in making the repairs as inexpensive as possible so I would appreciate any information on what the best solution is for the replacement wood. I would like it to look decent, but it does not have to look 'factory.' Any idea where I can price the teak plywood to get an idea which way to go?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Did you really mean to use the words "project boat" and "inexpensive" in the same sentence?<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> Here are my suggestions on bulkhead materials:

1.) Follow up on Don's lead to David Luckenbach. I bought some used C-25 parts from him. He's honest, prompt, reliable, knowledgable, etc.

2.) Check with your local lumber yard about the cost of special ordering exterior teak plywood. (Real lumber yard, not Home Despot, Lowe's, Scotty's, etc.) Beware of contact paper coated imitations - real teak veneer or nothing! If you are able to locate the real thing, the cost of may give you second thoughts.

3.) The strongest, least expensive, most available alternative might be my suggestion about marine fur plywood, WEST, and paint.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> during a wicked storm last week the port upper turnbuckle broke (actually a very bizzare case, I went to check the boat and found the port upper free at the base, the T-bolt in the shackle, the last inch of the swadged threads broken off and the turnbuckle itself lying on the deck and no sign of the missing threaded piece. I wonder if someone tried to 'borrow' a piece from my boat and was interrupted???). So now all I have supporting the mast are the four lowers and the starboard upper. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Maybe a lightning strike? I've had two boats hit so far. One of the more notable characteristic traits is missing pieces. Gone. Vaporized. Nothing left but splatters. If I were you, I'd immediately set up one of the halyards in place of the damaged upper. Don't worry about going over the end of the spreaders, just get it real tight so as to stop the mast from whipping until you can get it down. Then get the mast down ASAP.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... should look seriously at replacing the standing rigging. ... noticed a few meat hooks in the wire and one end terminal that has a crack ... priced a replacement set ... over $500. Any thoughts on a cheaper way to go? Overall the wire looked decent, but the crack, the couple broken strands and the belief that it is likely several years old and has been afloat in salt water for the last 5 years or more makes me think that it is necessary to do something about it before this season starts.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yikes! Not to seem like an alarmist, but your standing rigging sounds like a disaster! What you describe sounds like original equipment that's been in use twice as long as it should. Five boat bucks isn't bad for basic replacement rigging. Mine (1979 also) was in similar condition when I got the boat. Rust colored wire, meat hooks, cracked swages, jammed, stripped, and broken SS closed body turnbuckles, etc. Here's what I did:

<ul><li>Replaced original stem fitting, lower shroud chainplates, and spreader bases with factory upgrade parts.</li></ul><ul><li>Upgraded SS closed body turnbuckles to toggle-jaw/toggle-jaw open body bronze.</li></ul><ul><li>Replaced swaged terminals with Sta-Lock eyes.</li></ul><ul><li>Replaced 302/304 1x19 wire with 316 alloy.</li></ul><ul><li>Upgraded single backstay to split backstay with adjustable tensioner.</li></ul>Yes, that all probably cost somewhat more than $500, but I'm very happy with the results.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited to correct Mr. Luckenbach's name (I hope).

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 03/21/2003 14:19:41

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 09:24:39

A while back, Mike Luckenbach was selling used C25 parts, including bulkheads for $25 each.

Minor point ... his name is David, not Mike. I have bought a couple of salvaged parts from him ... he is fair and prompt ... a good guy to deal with.

Since we are talking about bulkheads, what is the purpose of that "tape" stuff that is stuffed between the bulkheads and the hull? Some of mine has pulled out, and I don't see any reason to replace it ... should I?

Thanks!

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 13:14:14

Oops! <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> I meant David Luckenbach.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2003 : 15:42:31

One point that hasn't been discussed.

You mentioned the deck core:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As far as I can tell the water was leaking through the deck plate so I do not believe (famous last words) that there is any significant damage to the deck core. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Chances are there is significant damage to the deck core. Catalina didn't seal/isolate the core around any holes in the deck. If the bulkhead has been exposed to water to the point of rotting (not just delaminating) then the deck core (also plywood) will have the same exposure. If the deck gets soft around the chainplate, every time you walk around the chainplate, the deck will flex, the caulking will break loose and allow water penetration. Then the problem starts all over again. I would definitely check the core when the chainplate is removed. Poke around in the hole and try to extract a sample of the core to examine.

You're looking to do all this as inexpensively as possible, but keep in mind, inexpensive in the short term usually results in expensive in the long term. My approach would be to fix it such that the likelihood of the problem occurring again is completely minimized. That tends to be the least expensive in the long term.

Good luck and keep us posted on the progress.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - John Mason on 03/21/2003 15:43:57

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 15:39:41

With regard to rigging, there was a Practical Sailor evaluation of various rigging terminals (swage, tapered cone, etc) and I remember being ASTONISHED at their suggestion that 7X wire around SS thimbles with double Nicopress fittings stood up at least as well and in some cases better than the cold rolled swaging. I am not advocating this from personal knowledge, merely passing on information. There was an outfit on Long Island, NY years ago that manufactured twin keel boats in the mid-twenty foot range called Tylercraft, that routinely used the Nicopress method. Fair winds, ron srsk #2343 Orion SW FL

Edited by - on

CatalinaGuy
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2003 : 22:16:15

I removed the two bulkhead panels you are referring to on my C25 in order to refinish the interior of the boat. In doing so, I found that the bulkheads are sized to take some of the deck load with no weight on the deck. I had to use a car jack and timber blocks to jack the deck up enough to get the bulkhead out. Point being, make sure you make the replacement bulkheads *exactly* the same dimensions as the original, otherwise you will introduce additional flexing into the deck which will likely cause cracks in the gelcoat and possibly the laminate around the mast step.

Doug Hibberd, 'Shiraz'
C25 SK/SR 1983
Austin, TX

Edited by - on

Manitou
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/23/2003 : 23:19:30

First, I am amazed and impressed with the number and quality of posts in this forum. It is far superior to any other message board I have used. Thank you all very much. It seems that I have found replacements bulkheads from the post above, thank you for the reference.

Although it is an old baot and purchased as a learning experience, I do love the boat and want to get it into cruising shape. The fixes will certainly be cheaper than a new boat and I have already invested a lot of time and effort into this boat. I am going to replace the standing rigging and possibly the running rigging since it is as old and worn as the other.

My main question is assuming that there is some damage to the plywood layer of the deck, how much of aproject will it be to fix? I have some wood laminate and glass experience from building a wooden kyak so I have worked with glass and wood composites. But I am a little intimidated by rebuilding a load bearing structure like the deck around the chain plates. I know that since the main shrouds pass through the deck and connect to the bulkhead the area does not bear the kind of load the lower shroud chain plates do. Any suggestions or experience undertaking such a project? Do I just cut out the bad area and replace the wood and then lay new glass over the patch and blend it? Any further guidance would be very much appreciated.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 13:17:21

I've heard of a couple of methods.

One is to drill holes in the deck through the upper lam and the core, but not the lower laminate in a pattern throughout the effected area. Holes maybe 3/8" and an inch apart. Dry the core. You can flood it with acetone to displace the water, then the acetone evaporates pretty fast. Once it's completely dry, fill the holes with epoxy mixed with colloidal silica. Top it with a two-part polyurethane paint to blend with the deck.

The other is to cut an area of the upper lam out along lines that can be blended back easily, say the border between the non-skid and smooth areas of the deck. Save the piece. Remove all the rotted core and replace with plywood formed to fit. Glue it in with epoxy. Place the saved piece back on the new core with more epoxy to glue it in. Fill and blend the seam to match the deck.

I've talked to people who have done these same methods from the underside. The same process upside-down, but the difficulty increases with gravity working against you. But that way, the damage is inside and the deck still looks good.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 20:09:54

Your comments about the message board are right on. I am seventy now and have been on the water fifty years one way or another and have never seen another web site group so friendly and helpful, especially to newbies like myself. It is a pleasure to share information that is useful to other sailors. My experience having had many boats both sail and power, is that no group is kindlier to one another than sailors. God bless, ron srsk #2343 Orion SW FL

Edited by - on

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