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de-masting

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markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/24/2003 : 12:48:10

Hello..
My 1980 SK/SR mast snapped in two at a regatta this weekend. The shroud came loose at the spreader and... SNAP! broke the mast in half, right above the sreader.

The break is pretty clean, and was wondering what solutions were possible. I spoke to some people about maybe riveting in a 4 foot sleeve at the break and refitting it... what is your take? I have a winch on the mast which i wanna possible keep..

I posted on the swap meet about any used masts out there...

What is the catalina direct price of a new mast? - problem here is that my lines did NOT go to the cockpit, and do not want to invest in that... yet.

I am <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>.. my baby is hurt.

thanks
-marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 13:57:55

Hi Marco,

I am soooooooooooo sorry to hear about your mast ... that is awful news <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

I'm certainly no expert, but my gut reaction is that the mast should be replaced. If I were in your shoes, I would contact David Luckenbach to see if he still has the mast from the salvaged Catalina 25 that he was selling part-by-part. Here is his email address:

davidluc@grayce.net

One of the downsides of this Forum is that we hear about catastrophes like yours ... whether you are at risk for this happening or not, it really gets your attention. I'm starting to get cold feet about sailing at all until I replace my spreader brackets ... I can't afford to break a mast!

Ironically, it is also an upside of this Forum to hear about catastrophes like yours ... if you've got any idea of why your shroud came loose, and/or how you might have prevented the accident, please let us know so the rest of might be able to prevent this from happening!

Good luck in getting it repaired/replaced ... keep us advised of your progress.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 14:00:01

I've heard of people sleeving broken masts. A 4 foot section of some aluminum that will snugly slide inside the mast pieces and be riveted in place. Maybe find another broken Cat 25 mast, cut the sail track portion out enough to be able to compress the rest enough to slide inside your mast segments. Pop rivet it thoroughly and some epoxy too.

Two years ago, I called Catalina Direct about a new mast. They wanted about $800 for the bare extrusion plus shipping. Then you have to take all the pieces off your old one, drill all the holes and remount everything.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 14:06:55

I know this sounds preposterous, but when I first got my boat insurance (about 25 years ago) the salesman told me it covered a broken mast or spars, even if done while racing. It wouldn't surprise me if that has changed by now, but it's worth a call to your insurance carrier, just to be sure.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 14:17:43

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I know this sounds preposterous, but when I first got my boat insurance (about 25 years ago) the salesman told me it covered a broken mast or spars, even if done while racing. It wouldn't surprise me if that has changed by now, but it's worth a call to your insurance carrier, just to be sure.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Great point Steve - My insurace covers racing too. Your other options would be to call a couple of boat bone yards and see if there are any old masts laying around. You would be surprised what you might find. (it doesn't have to be a C-25 - just be about the same size)

The more important point here is was it a weather related incident? were your shrouds Way too tight?, was there a crack in the spreader..... After you get this fixed, you won't want it to happen again.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 14:33:31

The shroud on the starboard side was too loose, or became loose during the race. During the last tack it popped out the spreader an caused too much tension on the top of the mast (and no lateral support <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>.

I will call my insurance and give that a shot.. I should have pictures this afternoon.

Thanks for the all the sympathy, (you know... it happens to the best of us <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)

ciao
-marco

BTW, we were beating all the boats in our class <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>... accidint happened one mile away from the finish!!!

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 15:10:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> BTW, we were beating all the boats in our class ... accidint happened one mile away from the finish!!! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'll bet you said "Gosh darn!" <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2003 : 15:33:59

My sympathy. The same thing happened to me in August except my shroud parted from the deck. To any readers out there: in case this ever happens to you, tack immediately onto the other tack. You might be able to bring your sails down before you lose your rig.

I bought a new complete mast from Catalina direct. It has inside halyards and a new deck light that the other one didn't have. Cost was $952 plus about $300 to ship to the Washington DC area. You can buy just the extrusion for about $500. If I were you, I'd get on the blower and call Catalina Direct now.

Bruce Baker
"Yee Ha!"
Falls Church, VA

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 10:02:33

here are some pics of the dis-masting..

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/snap.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/snap1.jpg" border=0>

Maybe from these pics you can have a better idea of possible ways to fix. IF YOU KNOW OF ANYONE THAT HAS A USED MAST FOR A CATALINA 25 PLEASE LET ME KNOW... i wanna spread my baby's wings asap! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 10:26:32

Ok, I'll admit to being confused.....it sure looks to me (if I am seeing the photos correctly) that the mast snapped right ABOVE the spreaders, right? I had been wondering if this was related to the whole "speader bracket" deal I have been reading about. I am expecting my new set in the mail any day.

However, the photo contradicts what I THOUGHT I read in the earlier post. Obviously, something happened to the UPPER shroud, right? Did it part at the mast head, or on deck? What am I missing?

(Duh....now that I re-read it....I think I get it......no shroud parted, it just became loose and jumped out of the END of the spreader, right? So it wasn't wired in with monel wire, etc.? That might be the part folks need to know and might have kept the upper shroud in the end of the spreader.....have I got it right yet?)

I , too, am very sorry to hear about this incident. What a bummer! I suspect that there maybe some used rigs out there, but by the time you chased one down, etc., it might be cost effective to just buy a new one....If you ever wanted a tall rig instead of a standard, or the reverse, this might be the time....

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - Gary B. on 03/25/2003 10:30:59

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 11:00:12

Gary,

you got it.. the shroud was not tense enough. The (slight) bending of the mast caused slack on the shroud on the starboard side and it popped out of the spreader. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 12:08:41

... it sure looks to me (if I am seeing the photos correctly) that the mast snapped right ABOVE the spreaders, right? I had been wondering if this was related to the whole "speader bracket" deal I have been reading about. I am expecting my new set in the mail any day. - Gary B.

I wonder if those who've had spreader bracket failures broke their mast at the same location ... I'd bet a beer their masts broke at about the same place. 'Seems to me that a broken spreader bracket would produce the same loads that Marco saw when his shroud pulled out of the spreader.

As I type this, my new set of spreader brackets is sitting in a box by my feet. As much as I don't want to drop my mast right now, I think I'm going to replace the spreader brackets before I sail again, especially in windy conditions.

I went to the boat intending to sail last Thursday, but it was WAY too windy for me. This is the time of year when the winds can really howl in Texas ... in fact, they are forecasting strong winds again for this coming Thursday and Friday. I can't risk breaking a mast ... I can't afford a new one.

This thread has been an eye-opener for me ... 'sorry for your misfortune, Marco, but I appreciate the wakeup call.

Good luck in fixing your "baby."

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 12:13:33

Bruce's advise about an immediate tack is very important, and will obviously help prevent the mast from falling. Sailing from sodus Bay to rochester, early on September on my Dad's Dragon. "POP! POP!" both starboard shouds let go in a mater of seconds. The guy on the stick had the boat around before the second pop finished. We were like ten miles out into Ontario and sailed to shore on Port and broad reached back to Sodus Bay. When we got to shore we thought we'd we'd start the kicker. Nope. too wet. Sailed all the way back, and as we entered the bay tried the ob again. it fired right up, and stink pot washed our stern and drowned the motor.

The important part of this story is the quick tack, getting pressure on the remaining shrouds so that they hold up the mast.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

10timesSaltier
1st Mate

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80 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 12:25:49

How does a shroud "pop" out of the spreader? Did the seizing wire break? My shrouds are wired into the spreader with seizing wire...is that the right way, or is there a better way to provide redundancy?

Brian.
Great Salt Lake (10-times saltier than the ocean)
"SAFARI", '81 C25 TR-FK #2275

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 12:26:31

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Were the sails damaged when the rig came down?

I would do what others have said and check with your insurance agent to see what kind of settlement you can get. If it will cover a new mast, then you're all set. If not, scour the yards down in your area for a suitable replacement.

Again, sorry!

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 12:44:19

A broken spreader would have caused the exact same result, and the break would have occured in the same place. but my misfortune happened due to too much slack on the shroud.. a broken spreader is probably due to too much tension on the spreader...

thanks again to all for consoling me.. I will be sure to give you all updates as to the progress of fixing it or replacing it - depending on what insurance tells me.

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 13:27:54

Marco,

I think I saw a used C-25 mast at Strictly Sail, a Catalina dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio. I don't know whether it's tall or standard rig. If interested, you can contact them at their e-mail address, which is strsail@iglou.com

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 14:12:00

This whole sorry episode points out a really Mickey-Mouse feature to the C-25. Why is the shroud attached to the spreader with wire? I just wired mine to my new mast and spreaders and thought the whole time "there's gotta be a better way." How about a new cap design with a strap over the end? Lowell??

Cheers,
Bruce Baker
"Yee Ha!"

Edited by - on

tdannar
1st Mate

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USA
25 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 14:55:01

Marco,

So, what you have now is basically a swing keel / short rig?

Glad that no one was hurt!

TD

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 15:04:36

Wiring the shroud to the spreader end is a standard process on most sailboats for decades, not just Catalinas, so it's not a mickey mouse feature of Catalinas. If done correctly, it works well.

Several people have asked, but Marco hasn't answered if his were actually wired in correctly or just held there by tension.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 15:11:13

held by tension...

oviously not enough tension <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 15:34:02

Make sure you wire them in next time or you'll experience the same again. My leeward shrouds go slack in all but the lightest conditions. I don't think you'd want your rig as tight as it would take to keep it from happening again without the seizing wire.

Bruce, an alternative might be to cut a disk of 1/4" thick plastic the diameter of the spreader. Drill two holes in it and two smaller corresponding holes in the spreader tip on either side of the slot and secure it with screws to the spreader tip. That'd keep the shroud in place, but still allow movement for tuning. Just make sure it's UV resistant or covered with spreader boots.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 17:58:09

Marco,

As I've read this thread I kept thinking about how I would replace my mast if it broke in a similar manner. I would not put a four foot sleave over the broken area. While I suspect it would hold, in racing I wouldn't want even tht little bit of extra weight aloft, even half aloft.

So, I'd look for a used replacement or for a new mast.

Good luck in working your solution.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2003 : 18:27:11

A friend of mine had his Mac Gregor 26 (old style so it's OK) on its trailer after a Delta trip and hit a tree. The mast folded in half. He got a replacment from Mac gregor and we took all the old stuff off and re attached it to the new extrusion. The Mac Mast was about $300. No internal halyards or anything like that. We worked from about 9 to 3 with a nice lunch break and did it all except for the wiring for lights. Lights were attached just not wired. Easy enough to do, just took a while.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2003 : 08:01:36

I bought the Catalina 22 video specifically to see how shrouds are wired to spreaders--but the process is different on the 22's. They use cotter pins through holes in the spreader caps, which seems very sensible to me. I stick with my contention that wiring shrouds is Mickey Mouse.

Cheers,
Bruce Baker
"Yee Ha!"

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2003 : 12:43:00

If you look at Marko's second photo you can see that the mast snapped at it's weakest point, at the upper bolt holes of the spreader bracket. With the upper shroud out of commision the lower shrouds held the mast in column from the spreader bracket down while the mast above the bracket bent over until it snapped at the weakest point.

Marko, I'm still a little confused on what you mean when you say you didn't have enough tension on the upper shrouds to hold the shroud to the spreader. As has been stated, the shrouds are NOT held in place by tension, but instead are physically held captive(wired) to prevent the shroud from popping out when it is the leeward shroud. Although the shroud is held captive to the spreader, it still must be allowed to move through the spreader end cap so the spreader remains at the proper angle to the mast when tensioning the shrouds.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 03/26/2003 12:45:10

Edited by - on

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