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Boatlife vs polysulvide vs 5200 vs Dolfinite

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/10/2003 : 16:45:13

Hi there,
On a different thread it was suggested to use polysulfide caulk on rebedding teak. Someone else suggested using Boatlife. Elsewhere, and I don't remember where, I heard someone recommend Dolfinite bedding compound. Everyone recommends not using 5200.

I am currently refinishing all the teak on my new 25. Looking really good. Of course I removed every bit of it from the boat first. I'll refinish the boat with Island Girl products. But that will be a different story.

I have used 4200 for rebedding items on a deck before on my 22, and it removed the gel coat when I removed the item.
I would like to be able to remove the teak in the future if I have to. Hopefully way in the future.

Can you remove teak when it has been rebedded with polysulfide caulk? How about Boat Life (I haven't checked yet if they are the same thing) Has anybody used Dolfinite bedding compoung. I know that if I use silicone the teak will come off, but I do know it won't seal as well.

So what are the pros and cons of polysulfide and Boat life and Dolfinite?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2003 : 16:57:19

Hi Frank,

Here is the link to West Marine's "West Advisor" regarding calks and sealers. It should answer most of your questions.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorDisplayView?advisor=340.htm

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2003 : 17:42:51

Frank,

I rebed my exterior teak with the smallest glob of silicone sealant that will give a full bead around the thru-deck fasteners. In the past, I've used enough silicone to squish out all around. When that needed to come off for refinishing, I darn near broke the teak getting it back up. After that adventure, I wouldn't recommend anything stronger. Almost none of that exterior teak on a C-25 has much to do with keeping water out of the boat except at the fasteners. The only minor disadvantage I've noticed to leaving air gaps under the teak is a slight tendancy to collect and trap fine dirt, which could later form a reoccuring rain drip stain.

There is also a type of traditional bedding compound that for all practical purposes doesn't harden. It was sort of a distant relative of non-hardening kiddie modeling clay. I used it around my cabin windows (portlights?) and it seems to work OK.

For semi-permanent and/or below the waterline stuff, I use polysulfide. Boat Life makes the most popular version, but 3M-101 is very similar.

I use polyurethane adhesive (3M-5200) only for things that are intended to be totally permanent but still need to flex a tiny bit.

For maximum strength and rigidity, I'm a big fan of WEST epoxy. I buy that stuff by the gallon.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 04/10/2003 20:08:04

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2003 : 18:20:25

Here is an excerpt from a SailNet article titled, "Choosing and Using Sealants", by Don Casey(author of This Old Boat).

Polysulfides- You can—and should—use polysulfide to bed almost everything. A synthetic rubber with excellent adhesive characteristics, polysulfide is the most versatile of marine sealants. As a bedding compound it allows for the movements associated with stress and temperature change, yet maintains the integrity of the seal by gripping tenaciously to both surfaces. It even adheres to oily teak and is unaffected by harsh teak cleaners, making it the choice for bedding teak rails and trim. It is also an excellent caulking compound since it can be sanded after it cures and it takes paint well. (The black caulking between the planks of a teak deck is invariably polysulfide.)

One caution: do not use polysulfide to bed plastic—as in deadlights, portlight frames, or deck fittings. The solvents in polysulfide will cause acrylic, polycarbonate, ABS, and PVC to harden and split. Only when you know for certain that a plastic fitting is made of epoxy, nylon, or Delrin can you safely bed it with polysulfide. Below-the-waterline through-hull fittings fall into this group, but if you have any doubt, use another sealant.

Polyurethane- Consider polyurethane an adhesive rather than a sealant. Fittings bedded with polyurethane typically cannot be separated without damage, so do not use it on anything you might need to dismantle in the future. Polyurethane is an excellent sealant for hull-to-deck and hull-to-keel joints and a good choice for through-hull fittings, rubrails, and toerails. Do not, however, bed teak rails with polyurethane because teak cleaners damage it. Like polysulfide, polyurethane should not be used on acrylic, polycarbonate, PVC, or ABS-based fittings.

Silicone - If you think of silicone as a gasket material instead of a sealant you can proably intuit its appropriate uses. It is the best choice for bedding components that must be periodically dismantled. Its excellent insulating properties make it ideal for bedding dissimilar metals—stainless hardware on an aluminum spar, for example. And it is—by default—the only one of the marine sealant trio than can be safely used to bed plastic. However, silicone should not be used below the waterline. And because it depends upon mechanical compression to maintain its seal, silicone is also a poor choice for sealing hardware on a cored deck.

Here is a link to the entire article. It's got some hints on Working the Goo.

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=caseyd0051

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2003 : 20:39:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> polysulfide...It even adheres to oily teak and is unaffected by harsh teak cleaners, making it the choice for bedding teak rails and trim<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Leon/Don:

Are you saying that despite what the above implies, polysulfide (3M 101 or Boatlife Life-Calk) should not be used to bed teak trim because its adhesive properties are too strong for removal later?

Does finishing/not finishing the underside of the teak pieces make a difference?

I am also refinishing the teak and am contemplating my rebedding options.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2003 : 21:15:48

I think when Don Casey said "It even adheres to oily teak", he means that it will stick to the teak and form somewhat of a mechanical bond, whereas 5200 would actually glue the pieces together.

I use polysulfide caulk to bed everything on the deck. Of all the research I've done, the consesus appears to be polysulfide caulk when bedding deck hardware.

As Don Casey, author of This Old Boat stated, "You can—and should—use polysulfide to bed almost everything."

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2003 : 22:00:42

RichardG,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Are you saying that despite what the above implies, polysulfide (3M 101 or Boatlife Life-Calk) should not be used to bed teak trim because its adhesive properties are too strong for removal later?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yes, that is what I am saying.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Does finishing/not finishing the underside of the teak pieces make a difference?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>After thorough sanding and rinsing with acetone, I coated the mounting surfaces of my teak trim with WEST epoxy (instead of varnish/Cetol/whatever) to help prevent splintering during removal. I carefully avoided getting any epoxy where sunlight could get at it. It seems to help prevent water damage under the teak, and provides a hard protective coating on the bedding surface where it's going to get brutalized during removal.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I use polysulfide caulk to bed everything on the deck. Of all the research I've done, the consesus appears to be polysulfide caulk when bedding deck hardware. As Don Casey, author of This Old Boat stated, "You can — and should — use polysulfide to bed almost everything." -- Don Lucier<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I agree, except for teak trim and the cabin windows. I now use polysulfide caulk on just about everything else (cleats, stanchions, padeyes, etc.) I use silicone to bed teak, RV window putty to bed the cabin windows, and I used 3M-5200 on several thru-hulls, and maybe the upper shroud chainplates. After having second thoughts about ever having to service those thru-hulls, I switched to polysulfide on later ones I installed.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2003 : 22:04:32

I use 3M 101 (or similar) to bed all Teak.. or most anything else you need to seal but might want to remove later on without a struggle.

Works fine, lasts long time.

I use 5200 Where I need adhesive strength.

-- bb

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2003 : 20:10:54

Have used polysulfide (lifecaulk, et el) for twenty years or so and have bedded plenty of teak with it. You might have to struggle a LITTLE bit to get it off, but then---do you really want a caulk that requires NO struggle at all? Maybe not. Agree with all, polyurethane (5200) is for things you do not EVER want to undo. Good Luck, ron srsk Orion SW FL

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Jody
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2003 : 12:40:06

Just wanted to say thanks for the opinions and references.

I spent yesterday sanding the hatch boards and the handrails. I'll be applying coats of varnish for the next week. The handrails had silicone under them but I think I'll be using something similar to the 3M 101 after this thread and a few others on the topic.

Jody Larrow, '84 SR/FK

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Daniel
1st Mate

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78 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2003 : 18:21:56

I used Dolfinite to rebed my stanchions. Has sealed very well, remains flexible. I had some trouble with the BoatLife not adhering to some hardware so went for this material instead.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2003 : 13:00:03

Well, after reflecting on both Leon's, Ron's, et al valuable advice, and removing the rest of the teak, employing great effort in prying, chiseling, angle grinding, cursing of the previous owner, acetoning, impact driving, screw breaking, screw extracting, further cursing of the previous owner, etc., pending further indecision, I plan to use Boatlife LifeSeal to rebed it. LifeSeal is a polyurethane/silicone combo which appears to be somewhat more adhesive than regular silicone (Both 3M's or BoatLife's Silicone Sealant) and somewhat less adhesive than polysulfide (3M 101 or BoatLife LifeCalk) or Polyurethane (3M 5200, 4200 and 4000).

Anyone use LifeSeal (and can testify to it's subsequent removal)?

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - RichardG on 04/16/2003 13:18:24

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2003 : 13:34:59

Hey Richard,
I use LifeSeal for everything. Good adhesive characteristics and can be used on plastic.

I mounted a double rope clutch one season, then realized I needed a triple there. Next season I removed the double and put in a triple. Removal required a thin flexible putty knife (a metal spatula would've probably worked) to slide between the deck and the clutch. I thought once I got it started that I could pry the clutch off, no sir, had to work the putty knife under the entire clutch surface. No big deal, but prying might lift gel coat.

Then I removed the single rope clutch on the other side and put the double there. Same thing, slide the putty knife under to separate.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2003 : 10:37:42

Thank you, John, for such a complete and thoughtful testimonial. That may be just what the doctor ordered.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2003 : 20:19:38

I once helped a fellow sailor remove two winches that had been bedded in 5200. We took 3 inch putty knife and sharpened the edge and drove it under the winch base above the teak pad. Had to use a large mallet. Most of the top of the winch pad came up as well. Sure impressed the hell out of me as to the adhesive properties of 5200. I don't think that guy ever used it again, his language would "make a sailor blush" as the song says, ron srsk #2343 Orion SW FL

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 13:22:02

John:

Thanks again for your thoughts on LifeSeal.

As LifeSeal is both silicone and polyurethane, after bedding the wood with it (with both wood and surrounding gellcoat masked-off), would you recommend allowing the squeeze-out to fully cure before slicing it free at an angle with a razor blade (as some do with silicone sealants) or smooth the ooze-out with your finger before it dries (as some suggest with polyurethane sealants)?

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 14:44:13

I've gone with the Don Casey advice on bedding hardware. He recommends not to let it dry and then slice with a razor blade. Can't remember why off hand, maybe something about possibly cutting into the gelcoat?

[Edit: Oops, I stand corrected. He does recommend cutting silicone, and wiping with a finger for poly-whatever and then lifting the tape. I'd do the wiping with finger then lifting the tape method or as described below.]

I peel the masking tape off the hardware and then carefully peel the tape off the deck, while the sealant is still wet and the hardware snugged down lightly, not tightly (forming a gasket under the hardware). If the two pieces of tape are very close to each other, it will leave a very small bead of sealant and you don't have to touch it.

A day or so after bedding the piece, I mist it with water; helps speed up the curing time.

Wait about a week or so before the final tightening depending on temperature and humidity. Moisture actually speeds the curing process. You'll know you didn't wait long enough if the sealant starts to ooze out.

You might put a couple of scrap pieces of something together with sealant between at the same time. Then after a few days, tighten one up and see if the sealant oozes out. If not, tighten the hardware on the deck; if so, wait a day or two, then tighten the second scrap.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - John Mason on 04/25/2003 15:24:16

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2003 : 11:56:18

Thank you on once again, John. It looks like the polyurethane componant takes precedence over the silicone componant with regards to your ability to cut it.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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