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Waht's max wave height you'd feel safe in a 25

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/01/2003 : 10:14:28

i've sailed the chesapeake before on a 41 foot beneteau in about 10 foot waves, if i encouter those in my dinky little 25 would that be dangerous or is itjust a matter of eing good on the helm?

Steven de Filippis
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

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Kirk McKay
Navigator

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USA
111 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 11:22:34

Steven,
Since I believe I'm sailing from the same area, I'll tell you the main problem I've encountered...it's getting out to the Bay from the Marina. With the outboard, you have problems going out the channel in Herring Bay, because the engine will come out of the water with the big chop. I hope to lessen the problem by forcing myself to get the sails up sooner, but the channel can be very busy while you're getting out. We did decide to turn back once last season, and it probably would have been fine out in the Bay, but we just were having too hard of a time getting there. So far, we've never been uncomfortable with anything we've encountered out on the bay while Sailing.

Hope to be out there all this weekend!

Kirk

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 11:23:34

Hi Steven,

I think that you'll find that your C25 is probably tougher than you are. That having been said, 10 foot trough to peak wave height is going to be pretty unpleasant for skipper and crew unless the wave length (peak to peak) is fairly long......as in 10 foot swells on the ocean. The shorter the wave length, the more unpleasant the ride.

If you think that you will encounter 10 foot waves, it would be prudent to have a game plan. 1) Give a cruise plan to a trusted person ashore so that you will be missed if you don't show up at a certain time and an educated search can be organized. 2) Insure that all of your emergency gear - life jackets, safety harnesses, jack lines, flairs, bilge pump(s), 2-way radio, sea anchor, et al - are inspected and in good working order. 3) Preplan secondary landfalls that you can duck into if an emergency arises - and note these on your cruise plan. 4) Take your motionsickness remedies early. 5) Change down to smaller jibs and reef the mainsail early.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 12:56:01

This might be a good place to segue(?) into a related topic--in the process of Spring cleanin' and fixin' on my 1984 C25 with fin keel (new boat/first boat for me) I noticed that the manual bilge pump was set up in such a way that the in hose and the out hose lead in to the lazarette through holes that are not sealed around the edges. I suppose the idea was to allow water or condensation in the lazarette to drain into the bilge and then be pumped back out, but there are 2 problems with this; one being that the water drains into the quarterberth storage area first, damaging stored stuff, wiring, and cabinetry. The bigger problem for sailing in high seas is that big water over the stern doesn't stay confined to the lazarette, where it could be bailed separately, it floods the whole cabin and could cause a sinking. I intend to seal off the lazarette and construct some kind of plugged drain that I can open on demand to prevent that.

Rich Kokoska 1984 C25 #4603 FK/SR "Coolatta", Groton, Connecticut

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 13:24:19

Given the lid configuration of the port side locker (lazerette?) is an overlap lid, I can't see a whole lot of water entering into it, unless you sail with the lid wide open, or the cockpit stays submerged long enough to allow a steady stream to leak in - at which point I wouldn't care if stuff in the quarterdeck storage got wet, I be bailing/bilge pumping my a55 off to empty it ! (listing hard to port)

re: your bigger problem with big water filling the whole cabin (do you mean cockpit, cuz in big water I'd have the hatchboards on and top-slide closed tight), you have the two rear cockpit drains, and you'd be able to pump out the bilge that took on any water that came through the port locker area.

Excuse any mis-interpretation or trivialization of your initial concern and explanation, but I don't see a risk in not sealing the area where the bilge hose comes up through the floor of the port locker. In fact, I think it would be more of a risk if I couldn't quickly disperse or level out water that suddenly filled the voluminous port locker.

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 14:56:39

for Kirk McKay

i think we are in the same area, i'm at shipwright harbor. where are you? about the chop that you expirience; what motor doyou have, i have a 20' shaft honda. also i've never taken my baby out yet. i bought her last month and are doing a bunch of upgrades, any other advice on that channel?

Steven de Filippis
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 16:11:45

Depends if they're breaking or swells, and how steep. In a steep chop (wind against current) 5-6' is plenty enough for me. Gradual swells, could go a bit higher, maybe 10-12'.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 18:08:13

JM,
I suppose I should have started this topic as a new string, but basically there seemed to be a couple of scenarios that gave me pause to think about the drainage setup. They include a big wave ripping the cheap hardware and lid off, letting subsequent waves fill the locker easily; successive waves pushing lots of water under the lid seal; or just the common scenario of not latching the lid while in use and having it get pushed open. If you've hatched yourself in to the cabin to wait out a bad storm you might be in better shape not to have a damaged/missing lid pouring water into your refuge--a sealed locker will spill excess back out to the cockpit when it fills. It's all theoretical, until things get bad, when it starts to look like a real consideration...

Rich Kokoska 1984 C25 #4603, "Coolatta"

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 18:17:15

In my experience the Chesapeake Bay is very shallow. Often less than 25 feet depth. 10 foot waves there would likely be short period and steep and miserable. On our cruise through The Bay we totally got our butts kicked around Smith Point - I recall 6 foot waves in 7 feet of water! We were frightened, wet, and uncomfortable (this was not fun). But we finally busted out of the Potomac and went on. I would never do it again, however.

On a recent cruise off Long Beach, CA. I had 6 foot waves from the rear and never really felt them - they were long period ocean swells that just passed under the boat.

Factors: you are sailing to weather or downwind, the period and steepness of the swells, the depth, currents (wind with or against) and the marine forecast : is it increasing or laying down? Cruising or racing? Day sailing or on a vacation cruise? Singlehanded or with family (children?).

The most important factor is your experience and that of your crew. This is supossed to be fun.

Right now I wouldn't intentionally take my Cat 25 out with my wife and daughters if it was over 6' or over 15 - 20 knots of wind. That is my personal limit but I am sure others on this list would be excited by those conditions. I know I'm not ready for 25 knots, however.

I am also pretty confident that no one would like to be out in anything much over 30 to 35 knots of wind - and that would be under double reefed mainsail with no headsail.

Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5905 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 18:57:34

Raskal - The only way you might take water into the lazarette in an 84 C-25 would be if you were sailing her in conditions far beyond her design limits. If waves are breaking into the cockpit, your greater concern would be the fragility of the pop top, which could easily be swept away by a breaking wave. Sealing the lazarette would prevent it from emptying into the bilge where it can be pumped out. The weight of that water would make the boat heel to port and wallow, and any drain that you might fashion for it would take awhile to empty the lazarette. If you do all the work necessary to seal the lazarette, you still haven't done anything about the pop top, and you still have a boat that is designed for lake sailing and coastal cruising, and that is not really designed to withstand major storm conditions. Your better choice is to not sail the C-25 in conditions that severe, and, if you want to sail in those conditions, buy a more robust boat that is designed for blue water sailing. You could do a lot of work and spend a lot of money on the C-25 and still not have a blue water boat.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 19:28:23

Sorry, I couldn't resist. . .

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> i have a 20' shaft honda<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

. . . that thing must weigh a ton, and don't you have problems running aground in less than twenty feet depth?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>we totally got our butts kicked around Smith Point - I recall 6 foot waves in 7 feet of water! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Smith Point (where the Potomac meets the Bay on the Virginia side of the river) is notoriously the worst wave action on the whole Bay. There's something about the wave action of the river meeting the tide and wind effect of the Bay that often creates very confused seas. I've been really lucky the two times I've crossed the mouth of the Potomac, but there are many horror stories. Maybe it's all the stuff coming downstream from D.C. . . .

I've crossed the Bay in six foot waves and 25 - 30 knot breezes. It wasn't easy or comfortable, but the boat handled wonderfully. Even the swing keel stayed down and never thumped (Val!).

Brooke

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Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

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88 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 19:31:40

Steven and all,

Here is my experience in BIG waves in a C-25. About 20 years ago I got caught in a big rip tide south of Cattle Pass in the San Juan Is. in Washington state. There was no wind and we were motoring. The first trip up a wave face almost put the power head under, so I immediately shut down and raised the mount. As we coasted slower, the waves were so steep we began to slide backwards down the faces into our dingy. As we "flopped" over the tops, by now with no way on the boat, I thought the mast was going to punch the support post thru the bottom of the boat. It was like falling off a 10 foot cliff. The whole thing could not have lasted 1-2 minutes, and we were sucked thru the rip. AND the boat came thru unscathed, but myself and crew (wife and kids) were pretty breathless. I would definitely NOT want to spend and extended amount of time in waves that size with that short of period in a C-25. I believe the boat is hell of a lot tougher than its crew though.
Steve Kostanich sr/sk 1119 Equinox

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Kirk McKay
Navigator

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USA
111 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 20:44:17

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
for Kirk McKay

i think we are in the same area, i'm at shipwright harbor. where are you? about the chop that you expirience; what motor doyou have, i have a 20' shaft honda. also i've never taken my baby out yet. i bought her last month and are doing a bunch of upgrades, any other advice on that channel?

Steven de Filippis
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steven,
We are currently at Herrington Harbour North on C Pier (with a lovely view of the pump-out station on D pier!) Last year we were at Paradise Marina which is pretty much directly across from you. I have an older Evenrude with what I think is a 20 inch shaft. The channel is not so bad except for two things....
1. It gets very shallow in a hurry
2. Lots of power boats (including many fishing boats for hire) that will go flying by you on both sides at the same time!

As I said, we need to get our sails up sooner or just always plan on a 30 minute motor to Red #2. The problem with putting the sails up in the channel is you never know what the power boats are going to do and did I mention it gets shallow quickly? Lot's of TowboatUS calls. My first day out there was a really fancy 35'-40'ish sail boat aground just off the very first shoal (I think it's an Oyster bar...) Stop by for a visit most any weekend, end of C pier. I counted 6 Catalina 25's on C pier at the beginning of April.

Kirk

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 21:27:19

If you only have a 20" shaft on your Honda, don't go out in that stuff. Bill is right, the wave height is not as important as how steep and close together are the waves, but I have seen 6-7'ers that were so close and steep that they jerked my Yamaha 9.9 extra long shaft out of the water on occasion. On the other hand, I have sailed in 35 knots of winds with nearly 10' seas doing 6.5 knots with just a 90% jib REACHING OFF. It was only mildly scarey, but once you are in the lee of an island, then what do you do??? You've about got to go upwind sometime, and in conditions like that, it can get really dicey....Be prudent and don't go looking for that much adventure, especially with a short shaft OB. You never know when you'll blow a halyard, rip a sail, etc. and really NEED that OB to get home!!!!!

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 22:05:46

Rich: Do yourself a favor and start a new topic. You can cut an paste into it...

Steven: As others have said, height is not really as important as shape (when you get past a certain height). Shape is generally dictated by two things: depth and current/wind direction. 10-foot ocean swells developed in extreme depths, thus gaining very long wavelengths. In much of the Chesapeake, the waves are developing in less than 50' of depth, so the waves will be "square"--steep faces with breaking crests when they get past about 3'. In the southern Chesapeake, you get some ocean swells that start shortening up as they enter the shallower waters--creating breaking waves and heavy chop. Long Island sound is similar, but a little deeper, so wavelenghts tend to be a little longer. On the other hand, we have stronger currents, so wind opposite the current can create "square waves." When wave heights go past 4' on the Sound, I'm ducking for cover. I saved our marriage by spending an unplanned night in Bridgeport, CT, a while back because of 30+ winds on the nose creating 5' breaking waves that we were trying to motor against to get home.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda

Edited by - Dave B on 05/01/2003 22:07:29

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 22:31:48

I agree completely with Bill and Dave, as one who once sailed ACROSS Thomas Point shoal, heeled, at night, due to a combination of exhaustion and stupidity, into Fishing Creek, thinking it was another entry (long story) I would say that the Chesapeake and Long Island sound (at its worst) not to mention Great South Bay (ditto) have much in common due to "square waves". I once had the skipper of a Coast Guard cutter who had been an instructor at the CG school for surfboats on the Columbia Bar tell me that the action at the worst in Plum Gut of LI sound (usually considered flat water) was the worst he had ever experienced. Advice: ALWAYS have an alternative haven available in case of really nasty situations and USE IT. That way the Admiral will still be with you years later enjoying the ride and not at home telling nasty stories about the lunatic Captain Bligh, etc, etc....Ron srsk #2343 Orion SW FL

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 23:44:35

Last summer I got caught in a windstorm on Lake Erie with sustained winds of 45-50mph and 7-8 foot steep breaking waves, and though the going was extremely slow, the boat handled it remarkably well. I kept the bow pointed into the wind and waves to prevent the boat from rolling, but after crashing through one of these fierce waves, I was forced into an unplanned 360. As I went through this particular wave, my outboard motor turned a few degrees presenting my port bow to the weather, which pushed it to starboard. Since I didn't have the power to overcome the wind and waves to come back to dead on, I had to turn the boat completely around. After warning the wife and kids, I gunned the engine in the trough, pushed it hardover to port, and spun the boat around in the flat between waves directly back into the mess. After coming back head to wind, I centered the motor and pushed the fiction lever to it's maximum position to prevent a repeat performance.

All in all the boat felt extremely solid, and though the weather was intense and caught me off guard, I became increasingly confident with the boat and it's ability to take a bit of a pounding. Hopefully, I'll never get caught in a mess like that again, but if I do, I know the boat will behave reasonably well.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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folido
Deckhand

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Canada
11 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2003 : 08:00:53

I am very concerned by the mood of the sea. So I listen to weather from different sources ( vhf, ham, fax...). I know my boat is not meant to sail on high seas ( 1985 sk , pop top). I know it can take nice big long waves like the ones in the gulf stream with a south wind. Keeping that in mind I had a wonderfull time all winter in the Exumas.
JGuy

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andyparas
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2003 : 11:54:48

I think the rule is that a wave 55% of waterline is enough to capsize a sailboat (around 11 feet?) That's for a breaking wave - but even steep 4 foot waves are uncomfortable for any length of time.

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Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2003 : 23:54:36

All of the above replies are very good, but it all comes down to your own confidence in your own and your crews tolerances and abilities. Also you have to know the maintenance schedule of your boat. If you have owned the boat for a while, and feel good about the rig you should be o.k.. If you are new to the boat you should get to safe harbor asap. (Of course this is all assuming these 10' waves are wind driven and steep.) Some of the best advice I got as a novice sailor is: Going to weather, the crew will break down long before the boat does. Off the wind, the boat will give out long before the crew.
My own humble opinion. It's all up to you in the real world.
Good sailing,
Shawn

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cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2003 : 17:01:58

Steven-

Lots of good discussion above. I sail around Windmill Point & Stingray Point regularly & have been up to Smith Point before (although I never crossed the mouth of the Potomoc since I was going to Smith Island). The waves tend to be VERY choppy. My C250 has handled 4'-5' fine, but its an awful ride for the captain & crew. The C25 is heavier & may handle it a little better. I wouldn't do 10' waves in the Bay by choice. As has been stated before: the boat can likely handle more than the crew.

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

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