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Tray
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Namibia
224 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/12/2003 : 08:17:25

We competed in an offshore race Saturday. There were a variety of boats, 2 Cat 25s, a Hunter 28 and 29.5, an Irwin 36, and others. I was interested in keeping up with the other Catalinas, but it was not to be. The 25FK took off and left us at the start. We kept the 25 swinger behind us until we got far enough away from the inlet that the seas became a factor. The swells were 2-3 feet coming directly at us. We slowed to about 2.5 knots, and the Swinger left us. Our speed eventually went down to 1.8 knots (over ground). The crew started getting queasy, and as the last boat ahead of us disappeared over the horizon, I made the command decision to drop from the race. I radioed in, and came about after about 3 hours.

Once the seas were behind us, our speed went up to 5.5-6 knots. The wind was off the beam in both directions. Since I have the Water Ballast 250, I'm limited to the 110 genny. The other boats were all using at least 135s. The 25 Swing had a 150. Wind was 10-15 knots. Since I was not very experienced with ocean sailing, I took the same angle of attack into the seas as the other boats. Maybe that slowed me down...I'm not sure.

Is this typical performance for a 250 into swells? Or just the WB version? Is it due to my 110 genny limit? Did the Bimini Bunch have a similar experience? BTW...when I say the other boats left us, I'm not exaggerating. It seemed as if someone had thrown an anchor off my stern. The admiral refuses to go offshore again (her queasiness was made worse by the 95 degree heat), and has even authorized shopping for a more seaworthy boat, but I'm hoping to avoid anything that drastic. I'm hoping that I may have been doing something incorrectly. Maybe I missed something. Would raking the centerboard aft had helped? If these are truly the limits of this particular boat, then I may consider selling her and search for a good C-25 FK. I hate the thought of being confined to the Cumberland Sound.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 10:17:10

Caveat: IMHO stuff follows, and my remarks are based on time spent sailing water-ballasted MacGregor's (classics).

In flat water racing, these boats are competitive. However, when you introduce sea conditions, the limitations of a shallow, water-ballast hull with no keel mass become evident.

That said, I've mostly seen water-ballasted Mac's have problems broaching going downwind in a swell rather than have upwind speed issues in a few feet chop. Their hull shape and high ballast makes them squirelly and want to corkscrew a bit.

Remember that every boat is a compromise in one way or another and that a water-ballasted rig is optimized for ease of trailering and launching rather than raw sailing performance.

Having never been on a water-ballasted C250, I can't comment on their comfort level in a seaway, but I'd venture a guess that a rig with a real keel will be easier on the stomach.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 10:31:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"...I was interested in keeping up with the other Catalinas, but it was not to be. The 25FK took off and left us at the start. We kept the 25 swinger behind us until we got far enough away from the inlet...and the Swinger left us...when I say the other boats left us, I'm not exaggerating. It seemed as if someone had thrown an anchor off my stern."<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Tray,

Sorry to hear you had to drop from the race...Maybe next time the winds will be in your favor.

I've never sailed a C250 so I can't comment specifically on its performance, but can't you fly anything larger than a 110 headsail?

On my last boat, the difference between the 110 and the 150 was like the difference between 1st and 4th gear.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"The admiral refuses to go offshore again (her queasiness was made worse by the 95 degree heat), and has even authorized shopping for a more seaworthy boat,...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hey...Tray...when the Admiral says this, its time to strike while the iron is hot and move to a larger boat! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

This is kinda how I came to own my C25. My previous boat was a little tender and my Admiral, who does not like heeling, kept asking why the boat always felt like it was going to flop over. Additionally, my wife hated the boat's tendency to bounce around like an empty Coke can when we got in some slop(chop, boat wakes,...etc). My stock reply to all this was, "Well,...if we were in a heavier, more sea friendly boat, it wouldn't be so tender" and her typical response was, "Well, why can't we get one of those boats?"

Anyway, we finally have one of those boats(a C25 FK), and although my admiral still doesn't like heeling, she loves the increased stability and seakindliness(is that a word?) of our current fin keeled boat.

Maybe for the better enjoyment of the Admiral, you might want to look for a boat with characteristics that favors her, because as they say, "When the Admiral ain't happy...AIN'T nobody happy!" <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 05/12/2003 14:59:05

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 11:18:17

Don,

The limit on the genoa is due to the shrouds of the water ballast version being on the outside of the lifelines. The keel version has them on the inside allowing for larger headsails.

I think you're right about the hot iron. My dilemma will be selling a boat I bought new less than 2 years ago without getting hosed too badly. She's in beautiful shape, but for the price I want for her, someone could buy a new one for a few thousand more, or a slight more used version for thousands less. If I don't sell her, I won't be upset. She still sails well in protected waters, and is very easily handled. Besides...I've put so much into her that it would be a little difficult to let go. I'll just wait a few years to absorb the depreciation.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 14:59:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The limit on the genoa is due to the shrouds of the water ballast version being on the outside of the lifelines.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

A genoa won't fly on the outside of your shrouds?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 15:16:27

No. The lines are run on the inside of the shrouds, and to my knowledge nobody, not even Arlyn, has figured a work around for this on the water ballast model.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 20:36:11

Tray:

I'll go out on a limb, not having sailed the 250, and say you may have been trying to sail too high. The boats with the larger headsails and greater keel surfaces point higher with more power, and their greater displacement helps carry them through the chop. Since most of your power is from the main, you get more by sailing a little further off the wind. By doing so, you won't be challenging the waves to the same extent, so your lighter displacement won't get held up as much.

One way to test this theory is to set your GPS, if you have one, to a waypoint 10 miles or more directly upwind. Then try various angles off the wind and watch your VMG (Velocity Made Good). In those same conditions, you may make more progress toward the waypoint sailing further off than pointing to the max. You can most certainly find a sweet spot where, even if you aren't gaining on the fleet, you can keep your crew comfortable. A boat moving smartly throught the chop feels much more stable than one that is creeping along, being tossed by the waves.

If your offshore race uses an aid to navigation as an upwind mark, you can select it on the GPS and watch VMG. (You also need to be watchful of your layline, which will be outside of that of the boats that are pointing higher.)

All of this theory is similar to that used by the Americas Cup boats and other racers on downwind legs... Speed can be more important than the most direct route. Furthermore, as you get some speed on, you'll find that you can actually point a little higher. When you see your speed, or better your VMG suffering, fall off a little and get the speed back up.

Don't give up yet... Although I can't in good conscience tell you not to think hard about a nice C-25 FK! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 20:37:03

Tray… Like Clambeach, my comments will be somewhat speculative about the points you raise. First, several years ago, someone who had owned both a c25 and 250 and sailed on San Francisco Bay commented that the 250 wb provided a more comfortable ride with less hobby horsing than the c25. And, it’s been my experience on the Great Lakes, that the c250 wb doesn’t tend to pitch fore and aft as much as many other boats her length. Consequently, if the seas you describe were of a short period, they might have been slowing your boat. 2.5 down to 1.8 knots is very slow for 10-15 knots of wind. While a heavier boat will punch through oncoming swell better, most boats will do ok “IF” they are powered up. Your loss of speed with the onset of swell causes me to think you were firmed up too much.

There are things that should be done to punch through. The boat should be powered up. Basically, ease everything especially the outhaul (loose footed would help here), jib cars eased forward, sheets eased, halyards eased slightly, and if possible… the standing rigging. This is another time that a rig with a backstay tensioner pays huge dividends as the loose rig will drive the boat thru the swell. The C250 having none…usually has the standing rigging firm…not good for the conditions you were in.

Conversely, a firm rig is setup for faster air over the sails but lacks both the ability to drive thru the chop and accelerate very fast after each impact. Think of it this way… if your rig was tight… its like trying to get a car moving by starting in high gear and if you had to do it every 15-20 seconds… the losses would amount up very fast. Oversheeting the sails can also be devastating to punch and acceleration in a seaway.

Here’s and example that may help see that point. A catamaran will go very fast in good wind and in so doing the apparent wind shifts well forward and the sheets are hauled tight. If she experiences a submarined bow which throws the brakes on…unless the sheets are eased… she will just sit there stuck in high gear…lacking acceleration to get moving until the sheets are eased to retrim to the now much farther aft wind angle.

You may have had an anchor off the stern… and it might have been the 3rd generation rudder. You do not say at what angle you were heeling… but do say that you didn’t have the center board raked aft. From my experience recently with the 3rd generation rudder… it does not have the lift abilities of the 2nd…and it will stall and create far too much turbulence which means terrific drag which no boat can go fast with. This is a big danger of a very well balanced rudder and hence why some sailors like Bill Holcomb and Steve Milby don’t choose to use them as they want to know by the feel if the helm is out of balance. With the 3rd generation rudder, it will be necessary to listen rather than feel. When you hear turbulence… take a look and see if its not dragging sideways… if so, it’s robbing a lot of boat speed… rake the center board aft and trim the sails. Aft rake of the center board pays huge dividends in boat trim on the c250 wb and a boat in good trim has far less drag.

Catch 22… the faster the boat can be made to go… the more apparent wind can be generated and the firmer the sails can be trimmed for even more speed. Don’t let drag…keep the boat from getting up to speed. Foot off… ease off…do whatever it takes to get going and then when speed starts to build…use it as a tool to build more and come back to course.

If the winds are variable… once speed is built up…steer to the wind rather than hold the course and lose trim and speed.

I doubt the 110 jib is the issue here. However, I admit that I have not sailed a c250 with a larger headsail other than the drifter in lighter air. The c250 wb does not seem to me to be under headsailed once winds reach 10 mph. In fact, the fastest that I’ve had my boat going is in conditions where I needed just a slight amount of reef…with winds about 15-18 and did so with two turns of reef on the 110 and like Tray, I was on a beam reach. The boat was heeling fairly well with the center board well aft. The helm was balanced so well…that we sailed more than two hours with it locked and no attention given. Boat speed was 7.4 knots, with no currents or tides influencing. While we weren’t taking the swell on the nose… it was forward enough to offer a loud swoosh at every sea. There is a video clip of that on my web site.

In that instance, the chop was likely less than Tray experienced…and didn’t seem to slow the boat so I firmed the rig up… by hauling hard on the backstay, firming the outhaul and with good apparent wind had sheets firm. This instance occurred on a long 90 mile passage across Lake Huron and interestingly later that afternoon when winds built slightly higher, I took in a single reef on the main… and instantly dropped to hull speed. Nothing I tried while single reefed would exceed hull speed.

http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/c250_3.WMV

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 05/12/2003 20:50:10

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Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 22:01:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The swells were 2-3 feet coming directly at us. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If I understand you correctly, you were pointing to high. If the swells were coming directly at you, and the wind is generally the same direction as the swells, you were close to being in irons. I always try to stay about 45 degrees off the wind when on a beat. Sometimes it is better to do a long tack and then a short tack. When we were in Bimini the day we sailed to the wreck and to the Bimini road to Atlantis, it was pretty fresh and we were way ahead of the other boats including the C-25s. Only the O'Day could keep up. I don't know if it was the boat or the crew. When we arrived at the Bimini Road one of the McGregor 26x boats had beat us. But turns out he went close to shore and powered up the 50 horse iron genny. Check out the video on my FTP space.
[url="http://www.members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/biminiclip.wmv"]Bimini video clip[/url]
BTW, notice that in the clip we under a reefed mains'l.

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk
<img src="http://www.members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/fullsail.jpg" border=0>

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Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2003 : 23:09:37

Your feedback has my eyes opened a little more. Just before I read your posts, I was thumbing through the Annapolis Book chapter on sail trim, specifically the main. During the fight for speed the wind did shift a little from a beam reach to more of a close reach. Not wanting to give up driving directly for the buoy, I pulled the main in as tight as I could get it. Which according to my reading just pulls the boom down and tightens the leech. A traveler may have helped. I was more interested in not losing anymore ground by shortening the distance to the mark.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>There are things that should be done to punch through. The boat should be powered up. Basically, ease everything especially the outhaul (loose footed would help here), jib cars eased forward, sheets eased, halyards eased slightly, and if possible…<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I took the opposite approach. I pulled the outhaul as tight as I could get it. Brought the jib cars aft. And actually took the main halyard around the winch to get it just a little tighter.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> My jib telltales indicated an even flow of air, but I'm terrible at reading the main. I only have that one little yarn near the top, and it was not flowing aft. It was fluttering back and forth as it always seems to do.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> When you hear turbulence… take a look and see if its not dragging sideways… if so, it’s robbing a lot of boat speed<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I always hear turbulence upwind. I'm constantly fighting weather helm. I may need to rake the mast forward a little more. The funny thing is that I just raked it aft before this race thinking it would improve my speed. I figured I'd deal with the weather helm by depowering the main slightly.

I also spoke with David Graas today concerning my lack of performance, and he asked some questions and determined that I may have too much weight aft. We use our aft berth for storage. Everything goes there including our inflatable dinghy. I also had the table out from under the v-berth and mounted in the cabin. I had another friend who is learning to sail out with us, and he spent a lot of time in the stern rail seats. All of which probably caused the stern to squat, and according to David will also rob the 250WB of speed, especially into seas. I went to the marina after work today and stowed the dinghy under the v-berth (it just barely fits), and put the table back. I then put all the little knick-knacks in the v-berth itself.

I'll take all this input onboard, and try some different things when I get back from my next trip out of town using my GPS VMG as Dave suggests. I'm still thinking about adding a traveler, too. I just hope I can convince the admiral to venture outside the jetties again sometime soon.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

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