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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Splash Day! sort of, but have a problem :-(

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/24/2003 : 16:58:54

Hi all,

My wife and I splashed Adventurous (sort of) for the very first time ever! But we couldn't get the engine working and pulled her right back out.

The problem is that while the boat was in the water at the ramp, about 10 minutes, about two inches of water accumulated in the bilge. Where could it be coming from? Are the any usual places I should look first. I'm assuming this is not normal. If I'm wrong, please tell me. I'm so bummed.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 20:13:56

The SK in your signature is the prime suspect. One issue is possible cracks in the trunk due to an uncontrolled fall of the keel.

Other than that, check around all thru-hulls, including any speed log and depth sounder. (Your hull number indicates you don't have the infamous "to-hulls" to deal with.) Unfortunately, the best place to see the problem is in the water--that much water in ten minutes should be very visible. I'd splash her again, do a thorough inspection, and then yank her back out.

Sorry about the rocky start... It'll all be worth it in the end, and you'll barely remember it after a few years. And you'll be thanking the engine for refusing to take you someplace where she could slowly sink!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 05/24/2003 20:31:58

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 20:18:46

This is an anonymous reply <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> .

After launching our boat one spring we went out for dinner. Upon return we discovered 2+" of water in the bilge. Turns out some unnamed individual forgot to open the seacocks the previous fall - allowing residual water to freeze and crack one of the valves.

Hope it's this simple Ben.

Good luck and let us know what turns out to be the actual cause.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2003 : 20:32:40

The other posts mentioned some of the obvious ones... any place there's a thru-hull (you may have one under each one of the sinks) but forgot to mention the 'radiator hose' standpipe where the keel cable comes up through the hull. Check the hose and clamps. (should be 2) That's my personal bet.

Check everything, then splash again and poke around as she sits there.

It's probably something simple... Good luck.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 07:34:25

Thanks for the insight guys. My wife and I splashed again Sunday, I anxiously monitored the areas of the boat that you all recommended, and guess what? No leaks. I was a bit puzzled. Now I'm wondering if it was just rainwater that I hadn't realized was there. I'm thinking not, because we decided to take her out on her maiden voyage (which went well, very little wind though) and as I cranked the keel down, water was leaking through a seam in the aft side of the keel truck. I took some pictures.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db06b3127cce88c846b4c0ad0000001610

When I wasn't cranking the keel though, either up or down, the leaking along the seam would stop. Later on, however, I noticed water coming in at the same place on the keel trunk, but lower, more towards the floor, which I tried to show in the photo below.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db06b3127cce88c8471080910000001610

I'm assuming now that the DPO had the keel drop uncontollably. The good news is, I think, that the leak seems minor. My wife and I spent probably four hours out there and the water level in the bilge never seemed to get out of hand.

As far as a fix is concerned, I have an epoxy stick that I used for other stuff, that claims it can be used to stop leaks like this. What do you think about that? Or should I fiberglass the keel trunk where the leak is?

Also, my manual bilge pump wasn't working. Ugh!<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oh well, actually we had a really great day. I can't wait to go out again!

Thanks all.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 07:46:41

Hi Ben,

Sorry to hear of your boat situation.

I want to post this idea to try and get some opinions.

If the keel had dropped and damaged the trunk, is there a posibility that the mounts that hold the rod that the keel pivots on could be damaged too?

What I'm trying to say is...could the keel fall off?

Maybe this is a good excuse to get the wing conversion.

Good luck Ben,

Paul

Edited by - pwhallon on 05/27/2003 07:47:36

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n/a
deleted

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 08:57:51

My vote is to check how far down the trunk the crack extends, then rout it out, epoxy it, then a couple of layers of fiberglass over it. Good luck.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 09:09:49

Ben,

Sorry to hear about your leak...sorrier still to view your keel trunk...The pictures could easily have been of my boat...insurance adjusters allowed for keel removal and glass cloth patching of the damage from beneath...lasted half a season and then the flexing of the keel ruptured the trunk again...there have been some permanent repairs of trunks like yours , Ken Caves repair comes to mind...he's posted pictures on this site...in my case the final solution was, as Paul suggested, retrofitting with a wing keel, expensive but dry as a bone these six or so years since.

I wish you well my friend and when all is said and done great sailing to y'all.

Val on Calista # 3936

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 10:16:59

From the look of your keel trunk, I'd get it cleaned and routed down to base material and fully repaired ASAP. The aforementioned web page with the keel trunk repair shows how it's done.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 10:18:00

Hi Ben,

Sorry to hear about your problem. I hate it when water gets inside the boat.

An epoxy stick is not the answer. The trunk part you photographed for the pictures is structural and is what keeps the keel straight up and down under the boat. If you go out in strong breezes, the keel will act like a lever with the pivot pin as the fulcrum. The part of the keel that is inside the trunk takes all of the sideways energy. The crack will tend to be forced open more and more - allowing potentially way more water in than I'd want.

I am concerned that the crack might extend below the cabin sole as well. And, that the crack is an indicator of additional serious damage that you have not seen yet. My vote would be for a VERY THOROUGH examination of the suspect area.....both inside the boat and outside. Of course this is a big pain in the "hoo-ha", and will mean "dropping" the keel so as to be able to see what the inside of the keel trunk looks like. Sorry........

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 10:23:43

Oh boy, this sounds worse than I though. If I do the swing to wing conversion, how much does it cost? I think I had heard from some others who had it done that it was around $3,000 installed.

I'm in Ohio, and I just called Freeman-Eckley, because they're the only Catalina dealer I know of. They said they would be able to do it but couldn't tell me how much, other than that $3,000 seems reasonable.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1774 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 10:27:50

Hi Ben,

After viewing your photos, I suppose there is no question that the keel cable must have failed at some point and the keel crashed into the keel trunk. The good news is, the damage isn't so bad that the leak is huge and about to sink the boat.

I don't know much about repairing fiberglass, but it looks like a fairly minor repair to me. Here is a link to Ken Cave's repair that was mentioned above ... maybe it will give you a better idea of what might be involved in fixing it:

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/dragn2.html

A couple of other things come to mind, too. I agree with Duane ... if you've got any rain leaks, the water tends to pool in areas under the settees ... it doesn't make its way to the bilge until you've heeled the boat by sailing or tilting it with your weight. I still have a few rain leaks. After a rain, I often hike out on the outside of the lifelines to tilt my boat, and I put my weight on the bow and stern ... that forces the rainwater to the bilge where I can vacuum it out.

Also, the swing keels are notorious for having water splash up through the cable hose if you are raising/lowering the keel while moving ... especially if you are backing up. We've had threads on this subject before, and I don't think we ever really figured out what causes this to happen. When I first launched my boat, I didn't know about that quirk. I was lowering my keel while my buddy was backing away from the boat ramp ... water came gushing up through the hose and scared the living sh*t out of me! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

BTW, what kind of interior do you have? It looks like you have a "traditional" layout (with the fold-down table mounted to the bulkhead), but I didn't know that Catalina made swingers with that layout. The reason I'm asking is that I can't figure out how you were able to get to the keel trunk so easily. You can see from Ken Cave's repair that he had to cut away most of the settee along the bulkhead to get to his ... it doesn't look to me like you've got a settee there (which makes the repair much easier) ... <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Anyway, good luck fixing your problem ... I'm sorry to hear you got off to a bumpy start.

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 12:47:39

I initially replied to this without looking at all of your posts. (I have since deleted that post. While water can collect in areas and not make its presence known until you put her in the water, your keel trunk looks like it needs some major repair. I would monitor the water level extensively to make sure that your keel trunk isn't the area seeping water. While the flow may be small now, the damage that can be caused over time with a leak in the trunk is huge.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2003 : 22:42:08

Ben:

Sounds like, at a minimum, you'd better fix that bilge pump! West Marine stores generally carry a repair kit for Gushers--a split in the neoprene bellows is the most common problem--it could be from ice.

The behavior of your leak suggests to me that it is NOT a minor fiberglass repair. The keel winch puts tremendous stress around the aft area of the trunk, so a minor fix will probably fail under that stress. (Although looking at your photos, that's at the foward area by the pivot, so who knows...) I'd get a pro to at least look at it--if not to fix it. That moving 1500 lb. hunk of iron complicates everything.

As for the conversion, try the Search at the top of the page, looking for "wing" on both the General and C-25 forums. There have been lots of discussions about costs, effort, etc., with pictures.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 05/27/2003 22:52:52

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 09:33:20

Ben, was this boat surveyed? Did the previous owner state that there were no defects with the boat? I'm extremely suspicious . . . this damage had to be known about when the boat sold.

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 10:48:40

Thanks for all your advice and what not. Our first move is going to be to have a marine restoration company take a look at it and give me a quote on fixing it. If it's a whole lot of money, we'll look more closely at making the Adventurous a wing, which had been my plan, but not for a few years.

To answer your question, OJ, yes, we did have the boat surveyed, and specifically that area. I'm thinking that the DPO certainly knew the condition. I did ask all the right questions about does the boat leak, did the keel ever fall, is there anything wrong with the boat, and the broker all came back with negative answers. Of course, I don't have it in writing, it was all on the phone. I am talking to my attorney, but I don't know what to expect from that.

Thanks for your concern. Hopefully we'll have a happy ending.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 15:15:43

ben, i will be doing the keel trunk repair in the next couple of weeks.. i can keep you posted as to the costs and procedures..

I am in your same boat (no pun intended <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 20:08:43

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...we did have the boat surveyed, and specifically that area. I'm thinking that the DPO certainly knew the condition. I did ask all the right questions about does the boat leak, did the keel ever fall, is there anything wrong with the boat, and the broker all came back with negative answers. Of course, I don't have it in writing, it was all on the phone. I am talking to my attorney, but I don't know what to expect from that.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Ben... I suspect you'll find that the best you can do is get the cost of your survey back from the surveyor. The broker almost certainly used the standard brokerage bill of sale, which absolves him of all responsibility, says he made no representations, and makes you totally responsible for determining the condition of the boat. Presuming the owner wasn't around to incriminate himself (that's what brokers are for), it comes down to you and your surveyor. Don't spend too much on attorney's fees--I doubt he can take you very far on this one. You may be just accelerating your plans to make the boat perfect with a wing!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 22:17:52

Hence my prior comments about boat surveyors.

We have friends who purchased a 32' Allied Seawind based on a positive survey. They checked the boat in mid February (on the hard) to discover more than 18" of water in the bilge do to multiple cabin top leaks. BTW, the boat was surveyed on a rainy day.

I think these unpleasant surprises happen more than we know. Survey the surveyor first and I would avoid (in most cases) any referrals by brokers.

Those in the know usually don't say . . .

Edited by - OJ on 05/28/2003 22:19:48

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2003 : 22:53:58

Down at the boatyard where my boat was hauled and stored, I kept seeing this van parked in front of this beautiful 29ft sailboat and on the side of this van was an advertising sign for a marine surveying company. This van seemed to be parked in front of this boat every weekend and the same gentleman was tediously going over it. I kept thinking that he is giving this boat one helluva an inspection.

After about the fourth weekend of seeing this man seemingly surveying this sailboat, I went up to him and asked him how the inspection was going and he said, "I'm a marine surveyor, but I'm not surveying this boat. This is my sailboat that I'm readying for the spring."

After talking to him for a bit, I asked him about his experience surveying sailboats and problems he's encountered, to which he replied,

"I don't survey sailboats, only powerboats, because sailboats can have too many issues."

I thought it quite...uh, interesting?...that an avid sailor, who was also a marine surveyor, didn't do sailboats!

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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