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Anybody, besides me, do Self-Surveys?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/10/2003 : 00:43:28

I know the conventional wisdom is to "get a survey" when purchasing a boat, but I'm curious on just how many people actually perform their own surveys. I did my own survey(inspection) for both North Star and for my previous boat, and to me, a marine survey seems a bit much for boats in the price range of the C25(in my case, a survey would have cost about 20% of the purchase price).

Now, before anyone goes flying off the handle, I do recommend getting a survey if you don't feel comfortable assessing the boat yourself, the bank/insurance agent requires it, or if the boat carries a substantial price tag.

From lingering around this forum for awhile, I see people who have done some incredible things(major repairs, modifications, glasswork, motors,...etc) and I would think that they have the knowledge to comfortably appraise a boat themselves, just like an auto mechanic who is shopping for a used car.

Anyway, I'm just curious to see if anyone has, like me, performed their own survey prior to purchasing a boat.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 08:47:02

Don,

Contrary to my advice, I didn't get a survey. Kind of the "do as I say, not as I do method." I was lucky enough to have a friend in the business survey it about 3 years later and was relieved to find out everything checked out. I also had plenty of friends to give advice.

Much like you, I was in the 25% Survey to purchase price range. Currently however, after upgrades, it would be in the 2 to 3% range. I would feel confident surveying a catalina 25 on my own right now and would bet that I could come within 100 bucks of what a professional surveyor would come up with. Based on this thread however, I am going to change my advice to the following: If you know boats, and realize your buying a boat out of a bone yard, go for it. Otherwise get a survey....because yada, yada, yada

All of that aside, what I don't have that a survey will have:
<ul>
<li> Moisture meter</li>
<li> Knowledge of all code for hte marine environment</li>
<li> Motor knowledge (and the next one will have a diesal inboard)</li>
<li> Specific regional knowledge directly related to the boat that comes from years of being in the business</li>
<li> An insurance policy that backs the assessment</li>
<li> In many cases, a license that backs the price for financing</li>
</ul>
So yes, I can see not getting a survey, but the intangible benefits alone, not to mention the piece of mind would, at least for me, substantiate the cost.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 09:03:10

One of the surveyors I used did not have amoisture meter. He used a plastic mallet to do a percussion test. He hit the deck around chainplates for example to see if the sound changed, indicating moisture. He used an ice pick to hit the interior bulkheads to check for moisture. I didn't quite like either method as much as the next surveyor who had a moisture meter.
By the time I had the second survey on another boat the surveyor told me that I knew more about Catalina 25's than him, and what did I need him for. I know the answer to that, the moisture meter. Neither surveyor did any kind of dye test on the standing rigging, not did they even have a magnifying glass.
Don Casey wrote a book called Inspecting the Aging Sailboat. I recommend this one. Has lots of tips and drawings.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 10:03:01

I agree with the above. Additionally: have done my own survey maybe five times, and had professional surveys done about the same (dont ask about compulsive boat fetish) and inevitably I missed something on mine, but then inevitably they missed something on theirs. I had a guy from ST Pete survey a boat I was selling for the new owner, and he was so thorough and professional I said to him I wqs very happy to meet him, except for the circumstances, he did a great job for his buyer and cost me money, A friend of mine up North was John Atkin, son of "Billy" Atkin, and one of the great surveyors of wooden boats. He showed me how to use the plastic hammer to "tap out" a hull, and I got pretty good at it, he had a radar ear for mush, but I think if I was going to spend real money on a glass hull nowadays I would get a moisture meter survey, but for a "project" boat a person who is knowledgeable and fit enough to writhe and grovel should be able to do his (her) own. Best advice I have is: TAKE your time, dont rush the job, anything you rush on will bite you later, ron srsk ORION

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 10:14:51

I think surveying a vessel the size of a C25 isn't quite rocket science... a "mechanically competent" person could methodically follow a basic checklist from point to point and have pretty good confidence in their assessment.

I'd wager the folks on this list could put one together easily, if there isn't one already out there.

For a bigger, more expen$ive boat I'd for sure hire a surveyor... getting a $500 survey on a $4,000 boat ? Not sure it's worth it, put the $500 into the repairs you know you'll have to do anyway.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 17:39:14

Here's the question of the day:
At what percentage of purchase price does the survey cost become reasonable and economical? 2%? 5%? 10%?
What's y'alls opinion?
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 18:39:24

I did my own survey after talking with a surveyor about it.

One thing he said was a moisture meter on a boat this old (1982) wouldn't be informative, he'd expect it to detect moisture throughout the hull. I told him that the boat had been out of the water for quite some time (maybe a year). His response was, then the whole boat would read fairly dry which would be deceiving, as it could soak up a lot of moisture once it was launched.

So I figured I could give the rest of the boat a pretty good inspection for damage and wear. Haven't been surprised by anything yet (knock on fiberglass)<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 18:54:59

I did my own survey based on my general knowledge and the tips on this page. Then I paid $250 for a professional survey on the slings (and $120 for the haul-out). The surveyor didn't find anything I didn't know about and actually I did a much more complete job (he didn't inspect the sails, rigging, or motor - while I did).

The advantage is that he found the flaws I knew about (I pointed them out) and I feel that his professional findings gave me more negotiation room with the seller. Also the buyer may be more comfortable with him hammering all over the hull or leaning on the stanchions compared to you. If the pulpit falls off under his hands you had nothing to do with it.

Boat US did not ask for a copy of the survey and since I was paying cash a finance company was not involved - if you are financing an accredited condition and value survey would be a must.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 19:35:33

I feel confident enough to do my own on a C-25 but on Triska the bank reqired a certified surveyor. I also felt a lot better about the hull and the blisters we found. A full keel boat is a horse of another color as is the deisel engine. The surveyor found a lot of things that needed to be fixed. Some right away and some could wait. A/c system had house wire. OK back then but not up to spec now. Rigging swages were done with a portable swager and need replacing as time and money permit. Propane system needed a new solinoid shut off and needed a pressure gage. Lots of other small things. I went through the entire survey with him and learned alot.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2003 : 20:13:38

It's a comfort issue. I'm OK spending $5,000 on a boat, car, motorcycle, etc. if I'm happy with my inspection. If I was looking at spending $20,000 for a boat I'm sure I'd get a survey. Years ago I worked for a flying newspaper, and we bought an older Cessna. Funny thing is I don't recall there being anything like a survey. You looked it over with your mechanic budddy and flew the plane when you felt comfortable with it. In the end, you're the captain of the boat/ plane. You decide when it's ready to go.

Doug - #1913 Noeta

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2003 : 09:18:50

Another advantage to having a professional survey is when you are buying through a broker. After you put down the customary 10% depostit you can get a survey. After the survey if you don't like the results you can get your deposit back if you can't renegotiate. The buyer has the final say on whether the boat passes or not, not the surveyor.
I do like the brokerage system.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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