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Outboards again and again.

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/02/2003 : 13:40:43

osmepneo is in the water! Sails are on and Saturday (last( was the annual long distance race - a 32 mile race around the lake. I was register, had crew lined up and when it was time to leave went to start the @#$#%^&%^ Honda 8. NOT! Club has a rule about sailing in and out and there wasn't any wind anyway so we DNS'ed the race.

Since is not the first time I've had this trouble club friends have said you need to be thinking about a new motor, seriously thinking. And, while not the opportune time to spend that number of boat units, I have to agree. I cannot trust the Honda, so I suspect it will go. I've been looking around and found a good deal on the internet for a Nissan 6 hp, 4 stroke.

I wondering about both the brand and hp. Does anyone have experience with Nissan ob's? whtat about the 6 hp? Is that sufficient for the c25. When I run run the Honda, I am over hull speed at about half throttle, and am sailing an inland lake with no current issues.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 16:31:48

One factor to consider if you're contemplating the lower end of the HP range for the C-25 . . . does the Nissan have a high-thrust prop?

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 16:40:10

So my question is this. How long do you let that Honda sit around with fuel in it when your not using it ? And do you habe a maintenance routine.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

dgabel
1st Mate

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USA
75 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 17:14:57

I have a Nissan 9.9 electric start. I don't know how old the engine is, because it came with the boat. The only problem I have with it is that the starter motor shaft freezes up in the salt air, and it won't turn, so it won't start the engine. This necessitates taking off the cover, turning the shaft by hand, shooting some lube there, closing up and trying again. It's a pain.

Fortunately, the engine is so easy to start that I can just give the starter rope a couple pulls and I'm running. It has been very dependable.

Don't know about a six. But a friend uses a Yamaha 4 on an Abel Poitine 24, and has no problem getting up to hull speed. The boats are about the same weight.

Dave Gabel
Walkure
Hull 1484, Tall rig, fin keel

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 18:02:07

Don - I have a 10 yr old 8h.p. Nissan (w/electric start). I've never had a problem with it (so far, touch wood!).
Nissan does make a 6.5" prop for the 8 hp but I don't know what's available for the 6 hp. The factory customer service reps are very good with info and help.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 18:17:18

Don: Nissan, Mercury, and Tohatsu 4-strokes are all the same motors, made by Tohatsu. I haven't heard complaints, except that the 9.9 is a monster--much heavier than the Honda or Yamaha. My first question: How long is the shaft, and is that sufficient for you? I don't recall seeing a 6hp anything with more than a 20" shaft, which could mean you need to keep the crew off the foredeck when the outboard is running. See if you can get a lower-than-standard pitch prop (larger diameter or 4 blades is good, too).

Regarding Doug's question on old gas, my Honda dealer, as part of his winter maintenance routine, empties the gas out of the hose and flushes it and the tank. (I actually never thought of the hose.) That's in addition to the normal practice of running the carb dry.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 18:29:30

When my old Chrysler 9.9 gives up the ghost (It is the original motor on our '78 C25) I plan to try a Honda 3 hp four stroke. A member of our club uses a 2 hp. 2 stroke on his Cat 25 and has no problems motoring about.

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 18:50:52

I hope to not come across as a smart ass... but once, a guy had a lawn mower setting beside his storage shed. Haul it off he sez..."its got a bent crankshaft." I hauled and a few minutes checking it out... showed it had a dead condenser which cost less than two bucks. It was a very good quality mower and provided me ten years or so of service.

Following a little on Dougs thinking, there is obviously something wrong with the motor... but if its something that can be reasonably fixed... Honda's have proven to be very good quality and may provide many more years of service.

I was just talking summer cruise plans over with my brother in law who will share eight days or so with me this summer in the North Channel. He related that he was given a boat and motor recently and that the Honda 7.5 four stroke would not run.

He explained that all efforts to clean the carb failed... and my brother in law is a very good mechanic, a retired head bus mechanic for a very large county wide school system, extensive snow mobile, tractor, diesel, 4 wheelers and what have you.

He finally purchased a new carb... and the motor runs great.

Doug is right on task... just as its important to flush in salt water to avoid corrosion, its equally as important to run these outboards dry.

I have a Tanaka weed eater.... which is now 15 years old. It does not have a fuel valve or way to run dry. About every three years... it gets balky and requires the carb head removed and the carb jets sprayed with Chemtool... after which it runs like new again.

Fuel deposits and crud are a big problem to these engines with very small jetting... They require some intentional effort on our part as Doug says in prevention and often a bit of effort in the cure.

If after injecting a small amount of gas in the cylinders or intake the motor fires and runs momentarily... then disassembly the carb and clean with Chemtool and see what happens. If it has been running recently... it likely wont need the more drastic replacement.

The other cause besides trash... is water. The jets are so small that a drop of water will block fuel flow. This can usually be cleared by bleading the carb with the provided blead screw.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 19:29:34

Sounds as if you've reached the 'fed up' point with the Honda and there's not much salvaging the situation.

I see you sail on a lake... not much current to buck there, (maybe some wind tho) I'd guess that 6 hp in a 20" shaft would be perfectly adequate to task for general in/out of the marina use.

If you ever intend to travel to venues with lots of current or wave action, I'd opt for one with a 25" shaft and a high-torque configuration. Probably a Yamaha. ($$$)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 19:47:25

Thanks for the wisdom.

I always run the engine dry when I take it out. Don't know about the po. The gas in it is new and this past winter I had a Honda dealer, authorized service center, look at it and they could not figure it out. They finally replaced the carborator and gave up. Everything they did, everything they adjusted and the problem continued. hard starts, unreliable starts, stalling at inoportune times.

I am fed up with it, but do plan to try to work on it this w/e and see if I can get her running. But where as some ore mechanically inclined, I am a Tim Taylor type destroyer. I can get things apart but . . .. I am thinking the hose may be contributing to the situation, which seems to be worsening each year. Then when I get it running, if I do, I'm not sure I will trust it to start again to take me in. So, and this is my experience with the reliable Honda 8, four stroke!

The reason for the six is the boat units. Pure and simple. About half to two-thirds as much as an eight. Important right now. Also there is a Nissan dealer on the lake, about eight miles from our lake house.

I will check on a 25" shaft and a high thrust prop when I see the dealer at the lake on Friday.

Again tahnks and keep the comments and suggestions coming.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 19:58:20

I agree with Dave... the shaft length is a big issue. Enough so that I retired my '93 Honda 8 to dinghy use only and purchased the newer designed Honda 8 when they were first released in the fall of 2000. An extra long shaft upgrade was never offered for the Honda 8 or I'd gone that route.

I'd also likely gotten a six hp four stroke if one had been available in an extra long shaft high thrust model. I think the market is wide open for such a motor.

My ideal motor would be

6 hp
27.5 inch shaft
4 stroke
2 cylinder or very well balanced single cylinder
high thrust
non electric start
10-15 amp charging with regulator
flush port
gear shift out on the tiller
80 lbs or under

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 21:11:48

My OEM 1985 motor on "Even Chance" is a 9.9 Mariner made by Yamaha with a 20" shaft (2 stroke). When I replaced the OEM Catalina/Garhauer motor mount three years ago because my separated shoulder made lifting the motor pretty difficult, I replaced it with a Garelick mount that had better springs but less travel. So, I lowered the mount on the transom to keep the shaft in the water.

The result is that seldom, in the Chesapeake, does the water intake come out of the water, even in significant seas. Caveat: if the seas are more than three or four feet, I'm out there by mistake (which has happened!).

If I were buying a new outboard, I would surely want the extra five or seven and a half inches an XL shaft provides. But on a lake, especially if you lower the mount, it seems to me you might get by with a 20" shaft unless you love being out in the really nasty stuff. And lowering the mount is a lot cheaper than a bigger, XL shaft motor.

Brooke

Edited by - brooke willson on 07/02/2003 21:13:29

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 05:22:46

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
. . . this past winter I had a Honda dealer, authorized service center, look at it and they could not figure it out. They finally replaced the carborator and gave up. Everything they did, everything they adjusted and the problem continued . . . hard starts, unreliable starts, stalling at inoportune times . . . I am fed up with it . . . I'm not sure I will trust it to start again . . . this is my experience with the reliable Honda 8, four stroke!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I've owned a number of Honda products and have been very pleased with all of them. However, when I floated the idea purchasing a Honda for OJ everyone at our marina steered me clear. Last spring a slip neighbor puchased a new Honda OB only to have the same starting and idling problems (even after returning it to the dealer numerous times) that others have mentioned here.
Don, I think you've certainly given Honda a fair chance to resolve their problem(s) to no avail (I am surprised and disappointed that they haven't come up with retro kits and service bulletins to remedy what has to be, based on what I and others have heard, a rash of problems.)
In short, it's impacting your use and overall enjoyment of the boat. Take the licks and take the action Honda has led you to contemplate. We're all victims of poor product design at some point in our lives (just like those swing keel C-25s <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> !)
What a great forum this is . . . having others provide justification for buying new toys!

Edited by - OJ on 07/03/2003 05:27:20

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 08:00:12

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What a great forum this is . . . having others provide justification for buying new toys!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks Steve! but I'd rather not HAVE to buy a new toy. But it is comforting to get this good advise and information, because I expect that I'll have to do it.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 08:05:46

Arlyn,

Your specs seem to be what I would do if it were possible, or is possible. I can't understand why people talk about more power, when more power does't do anything for you, most of the time. That's one way I'm not a Tim Taylor.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 10:18:26

Probably not enough (perceived) demand for the bigger mfg's to engineer a lighter, lower hp sailboat motor. I think none of them currently offer a 'sail-branded' model like the old Johnson "Sailmaster".

Also, I guess from their point of view, why would they "piss in their own messkit" by offering a less-expensive motor when they can get you to pony up the bucks for the bigger iron ?

If Nissan would add a XL shaft/lower gear to their existing 6 hp I would get one in a heartbeat. The rest of the features Arlyn listed would just be icing on the cake.

Perhaps if we all emailed Nissan's customer relations dept and suggested building such a motor, something might happen?

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 10:29:43

see: Honda Problems, won't idle thread on page 3 of this General forum.
How do I add the link????

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 10:52:47

A short while ago I booked marked Nissan marine, creatively

http://www.nissanmarine.comand they do have a page to contact them.

When I finishing reading "new postings" I'll contact them asking for an extra long shaft.

Nissan provides a high thrust prop (7" pitch), but at this time I'm not aware of an extra long shaft. The Honda 8 has a 20ish shaft and I've rarely had problems with cavitation.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 13:39:32

Just got a reply from Nissan concerning the 6 hp 4 stroke, and their future plans: thought y'awl would be interested in it:

Don,
Thank you for stopping by our website and for your comments on Nissan
outboards. You, and your group, may be interest to know that we are just a
few weeks away from releasing our new 8hp and 9.8hp 4-stroke models. These
motors will be the lightest weight 4-strokes in it's class weighing only
about 80 pounds. While we have not made any plans at this time to produce
an "extra-long" shaft motor (25"-27") in the 8hp range, we do plan on
carrying the extra-long shaft in the 9.8 model. The extra-long shaft model
is scheduled to be released toward the end of this year. As we get closer
to the actual release date of all the models we'll post the relevant
specifications and product information on our website under the "Products"
section.

Again, thank you for your comments and have a great 4th of July weekend!

Best Regards,
Jim Morgenthaler
Nissan Marine

I replied stressing that the winner would be the 6 hp 4 stroke with the extra long shaft. I pointed out that the 6 was more than adequate to push our boats at hull speed, and more hp was not the issue, a deeper prop was.

Have a great 4th.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 14:08:34

This was part of my dilema several years ago... everyone was buying 9.9s... mostly because of the extra long shaft. I wanted to stick with an 8hp but needed a XLS and waited several years for Honda to follow up on its promise that it was going to release an XLS 8.

When they did, it was really a 9.9... and I wasn't happy about the extra 30 lbs of motor over and above what I wanted... but I needed more safety... I needed the XLS.

So, yes they got us over a barrel buying the heavy weights... but some one is always looking at a way to steal market share... and whoever comes out with a 6-8 hp XLS 4 stroke with alternator and regulator, weighing 80 lbs or less, is going to get the hog share of the market.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2003 : 16:09:09

Don,
I just returned from Sacandaga and read about your situation. I assume you took your motor to Yankee Yacht sales. They have always been good for me and seem to be able to service Honda's. I would be suspect of the fuel hoses sucking air around the fuel tank connection. I have always been able to squeeze the bulb on my fuel system until the bulb became hard which told me fuel pressure was holding in the fuel lines. Regarding prop cavitating or water pump cavitating I was on Sacandaga last Tuesday in probably three foot waves with my Honda Eight H.P. Got very wet from spray, but motor never came close to cavatating as best I could tell. I would think the suggestions posted on this thread should at least eliminate some questionable causes. If you want to go sailing while Osmepneo is being worked on just call me up on the website. Our season is too short as it is.
Bear on Brandy C250 WB

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 10:15:53

I picked up a tohatsu 8 hp electric start from these guys, shipping was only $100 bucks.... Its worth a look for any of you guys shopping...

http://www.lebombomarine.com/outboards.htm

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 10:17:48

Just out of curiosity - what is the Sailing in/sailing out rule at your club?

Could you have gotten a Tow out to the starting line?

What if you didn't have a motor on your boat?

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 10:58:06

The sailing in/out rule at our marina is probably a result of me <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> . They stated that they wanted boats of this size under better control using an outboard as opposed to wind. Only the smaller boats without outboards are exempt from this rule.
Have to admit, I had sense that somebody, someday would back out of their slip without looking . . .

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 12:37:52

Don;
I have a Honda 8 extra long shaft. I have had and still have a problem starting mine. I have had the dealer replace the hose B/C prevailing thought is air infiltration. I have found both new hoses to leak the last one worse than the orginal.

Unlike you once my Honda starts it is good to go and very reliable until that next cold start (which is > 24 hours)and then I have problems.

Honda has an auto choke on the newer motors which I think is a bad idea. I have found that I have to pump the throttle as if I was trying to flood the engine, crank it and at that point, it shows life but will not idle so I continue this process 2-3 times and it always slowly runs longer each time until finally it is OK. The dealer called me earlier this spring and told me Honda has changed their starting instructions to almost match what I have to do with the exception of placing the engine in gear (not yet running) and then pump the throttle. It was explained to me that there is something in the carb which is supposed to prevent one from flooding the engine by doing what I do. I however, notice no difference in starting my Honda, their method or mine.

I went with the extra long shaft mostly because of this forum (my deraler tried to talk me out of the extra long shaft)and was very glad I did so when, I was on Lake Erie last year in 3-4 foot waves.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - RAY SEITZ on 07/07/2003 12:38:48

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 14:49:25

Bear,

Thanks for the offer, I would love to do that sometime - me on Brandy, you on osmepneo. Last Friday I got the o/b running and it ran well and started a total of 5 times, including after a two hour wonderful sail.

Ray:

It certainly is frustrating. I've thought about changing the hoses, and the connection on the motor, but if starts fairly easily, and runs dependably, I'll be a happy camper. Where on Lake Erie do you sail. We lived in Erie for several years and sailed a thistle on Preque Isle Bay.

Duane:

Sailing in out rules require boats our size to use their o/b. could I have gotten a tow? Yes, and someone would have had to tow me back in. I suspect the reason is a matter of control, and sometimes we have jr. sailings sailing their Opti's coming around the corner, and they are not visible untilone is nearly out of the mooring area.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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