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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/07/2003 : 14:04:17

I am presntly the owner of a 1979 C25 WK (Pretty Penny), yes a 79 WK, it was retroed in Largo FL in late 1987 just before I purchased the boat.
The reason for this request is we have just order a 2004 C250 WK and are expecting delivery the first week of August. Unlike Penny which was a racer this one had to meet the Generals' specs. She will have all the standard stuff plus a marine head, 135 roller, flaking system and other items you would need in a RV, but not necessarily in a boat. So I am looking for anything that will help me in her use. Such as how much different does she handle due to the genny sheets being inside the rail versus outside like Penny? I also noticed this wing is quite different than the one on Penny. Penny has a original Aussie type wing and drafts 34 inches. The new boat's wing is much thinner and has a smaller wing plus she drafts 41 inches.
Looking for all the help and advice I can get before Pretty Penny II hits the water in mid August. I read on the form about looking for strong low weight engines: Penny II will have a Tohatsu 9.8 4 stroke with 20 inch shaft, alternator and electric start with a gross weight of 80 Lbs. They have a 25 inch shaft available (weight 84lbs.), but I don't know if I really need this much depth. Any ideas?
Will be awaiting to hear from the experts.

Regards
Frog and the General

Edited by - on

BJ Wagner
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 17:41:50

Congratulations on your new 250.

The first thing that you have to understand is that the 250 and the 25 they are two very different boats and IMHO can not be compared to each other than they were both built by Catalina.

We have had our 250 wing keel for almost two years now, and there are still days that it surprises me.

You will find a lot of freeboard with the 250 wing and you will find she will want to heel with bare poles in heavy air, let alone with the sails up, so remember to reef much earlier than you every did with the 25, and do hesitate to go to the second reef.

We love the roominess down below, the enclosed head, aft berth, the cockpit, and walk thru transom just to name a few.

If possible, rethink the 20" shaft on your outboard. I have a 25" mounted on the fixed bracket and the prop is barely deep enough, especially if you have any weight forward, or have someone go forward.

There are many here on this forum that have had there 250 much longer than I have and they will be happy to share there experiences with you.

I'm sure that you will be very happy with your 250, just try not to compare it with the 25.

Brad
Luna de Miel
C-250 Wing Keel #361
Lake Pleasant, AZ
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da29b3127cce96591202936f0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 17:59:39

Hey Frog and da General...

The extra long shaft motor is needed.

This is one of those deals that the documentation was never properly upgraded. The c250 was first produced as a water ballast... when the wing keel was added, the documentation which suggest that a long shaft will work... didn't take in account that the wing keel model sits 4-6 inches higher in the water than the center board model. A long is ok for a water ballast if its sailed on a modest lake. Even the water ballast however needs an extra long shaft if on rough waters.

In fact, the bonus 2.5 inches of shaft on the Honda XLS with its 27.5 inch shaft has been appreciated on the wing version. Do not get less than 25" and consider the extra 2.5 inches, high thrust, 12 amp output and regualtor if cruising is part of the plan. An 8 hp in a four stroke is more than adequate power wise and now that 8's are available in XLS with electric start... they have been doing a great job. On the Honda 8, the prop will start cavitating at about 2/3 throttle when hull speed is reached...so the extra 500-1000 rpms of the 9.9 are not needed.

The C250 will need reefed earlier than the C25. It needs to be sailed flatter. The main engine for the c250 is also the mainsail compared to the genny on the C25. Where you may be accustomed to first reducing headsail... on the C250, the main usually gets reefed first.

The inboard jib sheets with cabin top winches will take getting used to... especially if going with the wheel.

Be prepared for increased performance in light air... while heavy air will take a little more management.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 07:43:34

Thanks for the help. I sent an EM to my dealer for him to get some prices on the 25 inch shaft. I guess I will have to tread very litely with the new boat if she has a tendency to heel that much in light air. The General is not real keen on anything over 10 degrees. I got "Her" to 15 the other day very slowly and she did not jump out of the boat, so there is progress. The problem is Penny can take a lot of wind before she even gets to 10 degrees and it sounds like the 250 gets there in a hurry. Oh well practice practice will be the key word I supect.

Keep the info coming and thanks again

Regards - Frog0911 and the General

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 12:34:31

My 2000 wk had the factory installed marine head with the holding tank in the stern storage area. Other than the actual head the rest of the system was not a good design and has been replaced. The factory tank is solid black with no way to tell if the thing is full. Make sure you test the head system for leaks with water before you use it. There is a 2" threaded cap on the top of the tank you can’t see it. MAKE SURE YOU CHECK TO SEE IF IT IS TIGHT. The hose going to the tank from the head is of poor quality and it lets some odor escape. Maybe they have upgraded the systems parts by now.

You will also notice the boat is stern heavy. Others and myself have moved the batteries to the v-berth storage area. This accomplishes 2 things it moves the weight from the stern to the bow and battery maintenance is much easier. Store as much stuff as possible in the port and starboard settees and in the v-berth storage area.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Unlike Penny which was a racer this one had to meet the Generals' specs. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Don’t be fooled by the c250wk. With a properly tuned rig and practice it will race and hold it’s own against it’s sister boats. In a seven-race regatta in April we beat a J22, boat for boat 2 times and with a PHRF rating of 238 we took first over all. There are many boats that cannot sail too their handicap. The c250wk is not one of them.

The c250’s 135% headsail is close to the same size as the main. My first sail reduction in cruising conditions is to roll the 135% to 110% or 100% then a reef in the main is next.

Every boat has it short comings the c250 wk has a few but none that can't be tailored to the users needs.

A good resource would be Arlyn's web site. Even though the wb and the wk are totally different boats when it comes to rigging and sailing performance the interior (with the exception of the keel trunk and the head room) is the same. A lot of his mods will work on the wk. I don't have a web page but have done a lot of mods and I have pictures of most of them. I can post them if you need any advice.
If you have not already looked at Arlyn’s web site here is the Link

Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories

Does your new c250 have wheel steering or a tiller?

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 16:16:52

The C250 we looked at in Rockledge Fl. had a wheel and after I almost hung myself twice getting behind it and out We decided the tiller was the best for us. I also noticed that it sat tail low when they were bring it to the dock. I asked the dealer about it and his explaination was the engine weight which was 110 lbs along with the fixed outboard mounting bracket which put the motor approximately 18 inches behind the boat. The engine I am getting only weights 84 lbs. with the 25 inch shaft so he said I do not need the bracket.

Keep the info coming. Thanks to all.

Regards - frog and the General

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 17:31:02

Motor rotation is important on the C250 during docking. Some have opted for the motor mount extension to gain full motor rotation but a reasonable amount of turn can be obtained from most motors with stern mounting. If I recall... Yamahas have been reported to require the extension.

With 25 lbs saved on the motor and perhaps 100 with the tiller... balancing the boot stripe should be a little easier task.

Your desciption of the backstay problem has been noted here at other times and in fact quite recently. The backstay wasn't a big issue until the stern seats were added which caused it to move inboard considerably. This is something Catalina ought to consider redesigning.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 20:56:34

Congrats.....

We took delivery of Lady Kay (2002 WB) last Feb. and over all are very satisfied. We're very happy with the tiller. We have the Honda 9.9 (Yes, get the long shaft) Although a fantastic running engine, the top is big and limited in it's turning ability. This makes for interesting manoevering. (see other thread this forum). If you can get an engine with good turning travel it will make life easier.

Depending on where you sail the standard 3 gallon fuel tank can be marginal. The only thing larger that seems to fit is the classic 6 gallon steel rectangular tank. Put it on blocks to keep it out of the water, and put some blocks behind it to keep it from scratching as it slides back and forth against the gudgeon hardware.

See the tech tips on drilling a couple of holes in the cross member that the bottom of the aft "bulkhead" is screwed into. Any leaking in the cockpit lands on the ceiling of the aft berth, runs aft, puddles next to the battery, and eventually overflows into the aft berth. The holes let the water go to the bilge. Catalina was looking at implementing this "fix".... maybe yours will have it.

Speaking of leaks in the cockpit.....at delivery stick a water hose in both cockpit "cubby holes" and verify (down below) that they don't leak...(open the battery access panel and stick your head in).....it will drip on the back of your head. Occasionally these cubbies are being installed with less than appropriate care.

As far as sailing....you'll love the light air performance. As the others said, when the wind picks up, depower the main and reef early ,keep reefing as the wind increases.....and keep it flat. When heeled too much she tends to round up. You'll learn to keep the main sheet close by and dump the main on time.

There's more good info on this forum.

Let us know how it goes......

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 07/08/2003 21:07:14

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 10:22:42

Received an EM from my dealer this AM and he tells me the 2004 Tohatsu 9.8 25 inch shaft engine measures 28 inches from the top of the mount to the cavatation plate. He doesn't no why they call it a 25 inch extension, but the factory gave him the measurement.
Leaks, I could have gone all day without hearing that. I hate leaks and spend hours/days finding and sealing. I would expect that a new boat would come without them, but I guess quality control "ain't what it use to be."

Thanks and keep it coming. I haven't hit overload yet, but the General thinks I'm getting close.

regards - Frog

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 11:46:56

15,20, and 25 inches are the industry nominal ratings for reg, long and extra long.

Its good to hear the shaft length is 28 inches... and per other discussion on the general section, that motor is the same as the Nissan and has been well thought of. Its good that there is a lighter weight offering than the Honda and Yamaha.

Be sure to give the forum a report on the motor. Include its rotation abilities on the C250 and and when known, its fuel consumption per hour at 5 knots and 6 knots.

Sounds like a good choice.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:04:48

just for info sake, where does one measure the length of the shaft from/to? Is it from the base of the motor to the tip below the prop?

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:36:44

The measurement is from the mount (inside of the mounting arms) to the cavitation plate(just above the prop).

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 23:47:24

Sorry about the delay, but main computer dead with lighting strike even though plugged into a UPS. Working on getting it repaired meantime using the General's laptop which is slow (386 system). Anyway my dealer is checking on an 8hp with 25 inch shaft. He thinks the 8 only comes in 15 and 20. I have seen the motor and it appears to be much thinner at the waist than the Honda. I did not measure it so I cannot say for sure. I will let all know when it comes.
I do have one question that no one has mentioned, with all the additional equipment everyone is stowing in the v-berth storage comparment to move weight forward, where do you mount the depth and speedlog transducers? I use the Horizon DS and DL 45's which require them mounted forward of the keel, this puts them in the v-berth just forward of the water tank.

Thanks again to all for the info and keep it coming.

Regards - frog

Frog and the General

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 01:50:22

My thru hulls are mounted in the same v-berth storage area right in front of the 12 gal fresh water tank. The v-berth storage is huge, by far the biggest storage area on the boat.

While we are on the subject of the v-berth storage area the storage boards on my wing keel came cut in half for port to starboard. I have not figured out why Catalina is doing this. With the boards cut this way it takes the removal of both v-berth cushions to access the storage area. Some of us including myself have made a mod to fix this problem so the cut in the board matches the break in the cushions. From what I've been told the water ballast storage board comes in one piece witch makes the mod easier. All they have to do is cut the board bow to stern and install a piano hinge on the cut now access to the area is done by removing one cushion or the other.

What I did on my boards was to first make the board one big unit. Doing so was done by cutting a 1"x4", 11/4" shorter on each side of the storage board then screwing it to each side of the port to starboard cut. Now that I have one big piece I then cut the board bow to stern and installed the piano hinge. The board with the mod is stronger that it was before.

This is one of the better mod’s I have done. Well worth the 1hr time to do.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 08:33:42

Frog,

While I would lean towards an 8 hp (if its a 4 stroke), not at the cost of less than an XLS. One other item that came up in recent discussion is thru the prop exhausting which can kill reverse thrust and render the motor far less effective at braking forward momentum, and providing backing traction.

Recently someone commented that Honda intended to offer again the pre-2001 8 hp 4 stroke. There weren't any particulars with his comments of time or any changes in the motor. Previously it was available as you comment about the others... in a short and long version only. However, if when re-introduced...if its available in a xls, it would be a very good choice. It is an easy motor to start, very fuel efficient at 2.25 hrs per gal, does not have thru the prop exhaust, weighs 79 lbs (long shaft version), will push the c250 at 5.3 knots at 1/3 throttle, hull speed at 2/3 throttle, and doesn't suffer from not being a true high thrust model... it will stop forward momentum very well. Its liklely not available...but would be worth the question, if so and offered in an XLS.

Later commment... I just called Honda and this motor is available now as the 8 Classic... but they didn't upgrade it to an XLS configuration. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> This means that it would work well on the center board boat for lake use but wouldn't be the best choice for cruising rougher waters though I used mine on several Great Lakes Cruises without serious problems. It would NOT be a good choice for the wing keel model which has higher freeboard.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 07/11/2003 09:11:05

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 07/11/2003 09:11:54

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 09:12:51

Why would anyone cut the v-berth cover port to starboard when common sense dictates otherwise? Oh well I am not and engineer so what would I know. Someday I will have to tell you a story about engineers and the crash of a F-111A.
I sent Tohatsu an EM asking about the 8 and am still waiting the reply. The Tohatsu are all thru prop exhaust.

Tahnks again for the info and keep it coming.

Regards - Frog

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Orange Park, FL

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 10:48:34

Honda, directs exhaust thru the prop only in forward...nuetral and reverse are exhausted thru holes above the cavitation plate.

When suggesting the mod to cut the V berth hatch in half to make access easier, Bryan reported that his was... but the wrong way. Yes, sometimes we're left scratching our heads at the why.

It could be that management responding to complaints that the locker was hard to access...simply suggested to production to cut the hatch in half to make it easier to handle two smaller pieces compared to one big one... and they did <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>. If that were the case, that production worker didn't likely have the cushions in place to envision the benefit of the cut under the cushion break.

This really illustrates a point. Frank Butler has been very successful with Catalina Yachts. His management has some unique characteristics. One of those was that for many years, he would not advertise... preferring to invest resources in other ways. Another is a very small management staff. He still handles many warranty issues and a great many owners have opportunity to discuss problems with him. And, the point that I was heading towards... I doubt that he believes in extensive R&D... preferring to get the product in production and refining it as a process. He admits this freely. When he gives a talk at a Rendezvous, he encourages feedback... even opens the floor to it right then... "tell me what is not working, I want to know".

Two things are accomplished by this, it gets the product into production sooner and cheaper. However, there are some shortcomings ... such as Bryan's hatch locker cover. Over time however, the product becomes better. The hatch issue has been reported to Catalina... but, you might ask your dealer to call them and tell them either cut my hatch fore and aft or better yet...don't cut it...I'll do it. This way you will have cushions in place and can make the cut directly under the break so that if a piano hinge is used, the two halves will each open well with the other cushion in place.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 07/11/2003 10:50:26

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 07/11/2003 18:45:57

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 14:32:15

Great idea: will EM him now.

Regards - Frog

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Orange Park, FL

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 21:05:32

Received an answer from Tohatsu, the 8 will not be offered with the 25 inch shaft just the 9.8. I guess that answered that question.
Looks like the 9.8 with 25 inch shaft is what Penny II will get.

Regards - Frog0911

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Orange Park, FL

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 19:08:40

I believe the theory on how the hatch got cut in half.....the wrong way.....
I Hope my drainage holes mod as submitted to Frank doesn't suffer the same fate..."blub-blub-blub" <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
As for the v-berth hatch...mine was one piece, I cut it (forward aft), and decided to wait with the piano hinge....after using them as they are, in two pieces, the piano hinge part has been 86'ed.

Oscar

Edited by - oscar on 07/13/2003 19:11:42

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 20:36:24

The cheif advantage of the piano hinge is the half of hatch swung open, parks in position against the other cushion which leaves both hands free.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 22:00:35

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
As for the v-berth hatch...mine was one piece, I cut it (forward aft), and decided to wait with the piano hinge....after using them as they are, in two pieces, the piano hinge part has been 86'ed.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
FYI, the C-25 v-berth hatch cover is split fore-to-aft with no hinge. I just slide one half over the other (under the cushion if it's there)--no problem with the setup. For flexibility, I'd rather not have them connected.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 07/13/2003 22:02:11

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 23:45:53

Dealer notified me Sat. that PennyII will come with the hatch in one piece. Thanks for the suggestion.
I haven't heard anyone talk about their OB having tiller's. It appears that all have remotes. I am asking this question now of my dealer, but the pictures I've seen have the remote in the fuel tank box. This motor has electric start and putting anything that deals in sparks in a gas compartment does not appeal to me. Any suggestions?

Regards - Frog0911

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Orange Park, FL

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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269 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 02:10:25

Frog, the remote in the fuel locker you're referring to is probably mine:

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db33b3127cce884585f643180000002610" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db33b3127cce884585d643380000001610" border=0>
I didn't use the included remote, which has the electrics and cable mechinism in one unit, but got a smaller TeleFlex Morse cable controller for the fuel locker, then took the switches and idiot lights out of the original remote and put them in the NavPod on my pedestal guard.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db33b3127cce8845851e43f00000002610" border=0>
When it was all said and done, I doubt I would do it again (although I don't have an alternate option for you). The remote in the fuel locker, while containing no electrics, is a very tight fit. Compounding the problem is trying to get a smooth, large radius curve for the cables to exit through the transom (DON'T attempt to route them straight down into the battery compartment and then out the transom...). You also lose a little fuel capacity, having the remote in there.

On the positive side though, I just received my cockpit cushions, and when sitting on the 10" cushion (no pics yet) for the fuel locker and reaching for the remote handle, it feels just like reaching for the shifter in your car.

Al Maniccia
SeaWolf C250WK #698
Marina Del Rey, CA

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 08:23:50

I'm guessing that remotes make up less than 25% of installations on wheel equipped C250s. Keep in mind that even though the motor well is tight, the tiller handle can be left on most motors and parked in the fully up position. This puts the throttle, kill and starter switches essentially at your right hand with a very short reach to the gear shift.

If following another current thread, it can be noted that to add remotes at the cost of motor turning is probably not a good idea. The significant freeboard ... requires motor rotation for docking.

However, there are remote installations that haven't restricted motor rotation and the use of some linking scheme to the rudder.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 14:35:42

AL, yours is not the only one I've seen, but yours combined with the C250/747 control panel is by far the best. Reminds me of my Ardvark cockpit minus a few tapes.

Arlyn, I have the question to my dealer about the tiller on the motor. The spec sheet says with remote. PennyII will have a tiller no pedestial. If it comes with both then it will be great and I won't have to do any mods. I would prefer not to do any mods on a new boat that are not necessary for safety or sailability at first. I am sure, I will make some for the General's creature comforts, which goes without saying.

Thank you all for your continuing counsel.

Regards - Frog0911

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Orange Park, FL

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