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docking/departing

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zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/08/2003 : 14:15:22

I am looking for the expert info here to help solve this problem. I can imagine that it looked very funny to those who were watching me back out of the marina, not just the slip, last week end.

Here is the problem: wind from the SW @ 10, boat, 250 WB, facing N in a double finger pier with my port side tied off and another boat to starboard. Putting in reverse to back out of dock and needing to turn rear of boat to starboard to exit harbor, no matter what I did with the wheel or speed of the motor, the boat refused to head that way. Even with rudder midship, it still wanted to pull to port. Finally gave up and backed down the pier until I was able to head out bow first. Fortunately, there were no other boat owners around to witness this, I hope. Any ideas on how to handle this? It happend one other time in a strong SW wind while trying to put the boat on the trailer.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 15:52:23

Do you have the 3rd gen rudder?

With the second gen rudder I had problems backing out of my slip although it was never as bad as what you described. After getting the 3rd gen rudder I have never had any problem backing out. My dock lay out is the same as yours except my bow faces south.

Do you use any link system (i.e. Arlyn’s soft link) from the rudder to the motor?

One other thing that might help: make sure you keep the rudder clean and free of growth. I noticed on both rudders 2nd & 3rd when it is free of growth the steering in reverse is more responsive.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 18:00:47

Jay,

Motor thrust on the c250 during docking is not a luxury... or something that would be nice to have. Consider it a necessity. While the motors cowl can be grapped and rotated in conjunction with the tiller or wheel, a soft link is so simple... but so effective.

A saying heard in this area... is that to try to handle the motor rotation, the tiller, the throttle, the gear shift, keep observation of whats going on with the boat, perhaps handing a dockline, etc. is about like being a "one armed paper hanger".

The motor rotation is the killer because it requires grabbing the cowl and finding leverage to turn it, which ties up at times both hands and almost totally distracts from observing the boats progress. Ridding oneself of this task goes a very long way to making docking easier.

If you haven't added the softlink... its a small project.

Motor turning... the motor needs to turn at least 20 degrees, 30-35 would be better. It should be mounted as far as possible to starboard. More turning room can be gained by a small amount of grinding sometimes on the tiller arm appendage.

Ok...once the link is working and the motor is rotating... back straight out of the slip almost to the obstruction behind or to your south and then make your reverse turn to starboard. Let it come on around now past the point of lining up straight down the fairway... this puts the bow now pretty much into the wind ... and by the time reverse direction is killed and forward speed returns rudder control... the bow will likely have drifted about straight down the fairway.

Give it a try...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 20:35:06

Which motor do you have? I have the Honda 9.9 with the tiller. It's big enough that it won't turn far with the engine tiller to port....ie bow to starboard (I'm working on a mod...).....It will turn more tiller to starboard thus turning the bow to port fwd and stern to port reverse. As the prowalk is also bow to port forward/stern to port reverse, and the rudder is useless at low speed I indeed plan all close quarter manouvering with turns to port.... forward, or in reverse, if necessary all the way out to bigger water where I have the three or four boatlenghts necessary to get water flowing over the rudder.

Arlyns softlink makes this all easier to do, especially for those without an engine tiller but it will not remove the inherent shortcomings of the design (ie not enough room to turn the 9.9) As I said, I'm working on a mod to improve this. Arlyn mentions removing some of the down rest of the tiller, which would help, but there is also a way to create a recession in the fuel locker to give the tiller some more breathing room to port.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Fortunately, there were no other boat owners around to witness this<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Most fellow skippers will not readily second guess "the plan" as they know they don't have all the information. But like a cat smelling a mouse they will immediately sense confusion ......and level a merciless judgement.....so the secret is to do it intentionally, with confidence and with a serious face. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2003 : 22:10:31

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> the secret is to do it intentionally, with confidence and with a serious face.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This is the second rule in Bryan Beamer's rules of life.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 09:46:27

<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Dare I ask the first <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 11:55:35

Rule number one

If it is not fun or if you don't get any personal satisfaction spiritually, mentally, emotionally or physically it is not worth doing.

When doing the above see rule number two.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:16:12

The soft link would be nice and useful but with my set up it wont work. I have a Nissan 8 hp with a short shaft I think, and it is has cabling attaching it to the steering pedestal where the motor controls are located. This problem seems to only happen when there is a strong SW blow. Normally I do as Arlyn suggests by backing almost straight out, at low speed to reduce prop walk to port, until bow is well clear of dock finger,and I am visiting the neighbors to my rear. Then hard to port with power forward. I have found limited success with getting head way while backing then putting motor in neutral to cut the walk and letting the boat glide back-only in light wind.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:34:57

Does the Nissan have thru the hub exhaust in reverse? If so, it can all but ruin reverse thrust as the prop spins in the exhaust and simply cavitates.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:50:44

now there is a good question. I have never paid attention to that issue. I will check this week. Is there another option as to exhaust and/or exhaust in reverse? Arlyn, by the way, I used your mod for the jib anti foul line and love it. No more crawling forward on the cabin top to untangle in the middle of a tack. Thanks-this and the next Bud is for you.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 17:23:54

I know Honda has designed the high thrust motor to divert exhaust to holes above the cavitation plate while in reverse. The pre 2001 Honda 8 did not exhaust thru the prop and had no reverse thrust problems...

The reverse cavitation in the exhaust is not a fictitious event... it has become a very well known and verified problem. C25 owners with heavier boats than ours with one of those motors has to be very careful using reverse to brake forward momentum.

I'm not sure if Yamaha sovled this problem by redirecting exhaust or simply going to a large enough prop to simply get outside of the exhaust influence, but their high thrust version doesn't seem to be affected either.

Pre 2001 Honda 9.9s were effected by this.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

River Harley
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 01:33:27

I had the same problem with my boat. The answer for me was Arlyn's soft link arrangement which enables the motor to move in tandem with the rudder. I actually look forward to docking now...and I've impressed some of my neighbors. I even back into my slip with Arlyn's softlink. I would have never dreamed of that before. Check with Arlyn about his softlink system.

River Harley

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 11:33:59

Jay,

I can take no credit for the anti fouling line other than being glad to pass on the benefit. In the early '80s, I bought a new Hobie 18. The dealer offered an upgrade package which the anti fouling line was one item.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2003 : 09:34:21

Well thanks anyway, it works great. On the issue of soft link, with the set up I have for the motor controls from the pedestal the motor will not turn either direction. The cables prohibit just about any movement other than tilt up/down.

The Nissan 8 that I have does have thru the prop exhaust. I think what may be happening is that due to the freeboard, when the wind catches the boat at the right angle, the forces of the wind over power the ability of the motor to gain enough head way to steer since the boat is not up to much speed as it backs out of the slip. I think the answer lies in making sure that the stern is pushed over, by hand if needed, so the wind hits the boat on the port side that will assist in turning the correct direction to leave the dock. Making sure to build up enough speed to keep the wind from pushing the port side of the boat back sideways to the pier making the forward motion of the boat also useless. Did that make sense? Much easier to visualize than to verbalize.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2003 : 12:59:59

Jay,

I follow...

But, having the motor controls on the pedestal at the cost of giving up motor rotation was IMHO too much to trade. An inboard motor can benefit from the prop blast past the rudder to effect steering... but an outboard depends on the ability to rotate the motor.

If no way can be found to rotate the motor... here is one idea... its just a suggestion... I've never given it thought... could a trolling motor be added somehow for getting in and out of the slip?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 10:18:51

Now that is a good idea to think about, kind of a bow thruster idea. Especially if the S SW winds are prevalent. Today the winds are 5-10 ENE and that usually means no problems.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 22:15:36

Another "wild hare" thought... Sometimes when the wind or current wants to push your bow around opposite to the direction you want to go, the simplest solution (if not a little odd looking) is to let it do so, and then back out of the runway to a point where you can easily turn (perhaps 90 degrees) and crank her up in forward.

I've done it... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Wait a minute--this is where this whole thread started! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 07/13/2003 22:17:10

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 10:39:31

thats where we started alright, but as you said sometimes that is the best and only way. The boat steered just great going backwards.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2003 : 12:25:07

If the boat won't make a 90 deg. right turn because the outboard can't turn that direction, you can always back out of your slip and make a 270 deg. left turn.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 11:00:29

now that is a good idea. I will try that, just for grins and see what reaction I get from the "crew".

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

mday
Navigator

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197 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 20:52:55

Well, maybe if you have enough room to spin around like that.

I assume these are floating docks like mine with no pilings to attach a line to? On occaision, I've used a swing line to assist in tight turns and where the wind is causing adverse effects. Maybe you can put a line on the end of the dock to port (or the stern of the neighboring boat if they're friendly). As you back out, it wouldn't take much pull to swing the stern around. If you double up the line, you can let go of one end and pull it back in. (Being careful not to let it drift back into the prop).

The first couple times I backed out of the slip I ended up going down the channel backwards too. I finally got the technique down to turn the motor enough (9.9 Evinrude) to allow a graceful exit. Occaisionally the wind causes problems. I usually find if it's too damn windy to back out of the slip, it isn't going to be much fun sailing anyway. Most sailboats I've sailed don't seem to back up very well, and some are much worse than others. As Arlyn pointed out, the C250 has a huge advantage by being able to turn the outboard and give you more control. Be thankful you don't have to back into your slip like in many marinas with short fingers -- this always adds to the excitement and I'm not sure the facade of looking confident and knowledgeable is much help when you miss the slip!

Max Day
C250 WB 380
Lake Pleasant, AZ

Edited by - on

jkey6
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 22:30:52

Late to this discussion, but I have a C250WK with wheel, pedestal mounted engine controls AND Arlyn's softlink.

My ped mounted engine controls do not interfere at all with the softlink.

JKEY6 on "All Keyed Up"

Edited by - on

lewalskim
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 16:39:18

Jay,
I have had problems after I back out of my slip and want to turn to starboard to exit the marina. I am in slip #2 and if I back out to port, I have very limited room as the walkway to the center marina slips is very close. I started backing straight rearwards almost into the slip behind me since it is usually empty. I still had a hard time to get the bow around to starboard even with the rudder and outboard turned to port. The bow would usually stay where it was at and the stern would come to port while kind of pushing the whole boat sideways back into my slip area and the boats in slips 1 and 3. A bit too exiting to start a quiet sail outing.

I found that I needed to drop the centerboard as far as I could (depending on the tide/depth) and thus provide a 'pivot' for my boat to turn around. It handles much (MUCH!) better and I can control the boat in higher winds than before without the cause for alarm.

Use of your centerboard might help too.

Mark Lewalski
"Little Wind"
C250WB #206
Safety Harbor, Fl (aka Tampa Bay)

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2003 : 21:20:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Use of your centerboard might help too.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Correct! You ABSOLUTELY should have the board down when maneuvering around a dock.

An equally important issue is "prop-walk" or the "paddle-wheel effect". Starting up in forward gear, it pushes the stern to starboard (turning the boat to port). Starting in reverse, it pulls the stern to port (turning the boat to port). Turning the motor can counteract prop-walk just about enough to make the boat go straight instead of the way you think it should be turning.

How to deal with this: Backing up to starboard, turn the motor to turn to starboard (counteracting the pull to port), give it some juice to get the boat moving, and then idle back down and steer with the rudder. If it isn't turning tightly enough, reverse the direction of the motor and give it a short burst in forward gear to kick the stern over without necessarily losing your backward motion--then continue steering with the rudder. That's how I make a 90 degree sharp turn to starboard backing into our 9'-wide slip.

One last item: don't push the tiller over about 45 degrees to either side. Doing so "stalls" the rudder--making it more of a brake than a rudder. It's even easier to make this mistake in reverse when the water is trying to push the rudder further for you.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 08/06/2003 11:12:43

Edited by - on

mday
Navigator

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197 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 01:16:53

Good point on the centerboard!

I found both going out and coming in to the marina, having the centerboard down is essential for steerage. I have floating docks which have a 5 foot limit for the underwater cabling and superstructure, so I have to be careful to keep the centerboard raised up a bit. I found there's a huge difference in controlling the boat -- especially if there's some wind. I had NO control over the boat with the centerboard up.

Max Day
C250 WB 380
Lake Pleasant, AZ

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 14:00:36

Thanks for the info on prop walk etc. I will try it next time out. With the linkage to the pedestal that I have a soft link is not an option, and I always have the centerboard full down. I have been guilty of steering full over-so that must be causing the rudder to act as a brake.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

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