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135 Genoa on a 250WB

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Rubin Hawkins
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/09/2003 : 09:27:59

Here is an update on Windy Joy in Sarasota and a question. First the update. I have added two Group 31 AGM batteries, a blaster pump and two hella fans. The existing electrical has been significantly upgraded ( Was it Longfellow who wrote The Builders?) and the stern battery moved to the v berth storage compartment. This boat is very comfortable. I have had her out numerous times in various winds but nothing over 12 knots except for a puff or two. I am very pleased with the speed (5 to 5.8) of the boat in 10 to 12 knot winds.

Now that I have accomidated some the basic comforts for the Highly Educated Vision of Beauty, I have some rigging questions.

I have a 135 Genoa for my Roller Furling. It came with the Boat. I can see clearly how to change the deck plan for single handed sailing. The coaming winches look great Arlyn! What do I do with this 135? I don't see a reasonable way to fly this thing with the shrouds connected to the rub rail. Has any body done this? Pictures?

Rubin
Windy Joy
C250 WB #591

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 09:57:34

Nope, can't fly anything over a 110 without running into the spreaders. (117 technically but there's no off the shelf 117's and I doubt you want one custom made for the extra 7%)

The answer is "The Ullman Drifter". Gary Swenson of Ullman Ventura CA has designed a high cut drifter/reacher which will work to winward in light air. Arlyn has pictures on his website:

http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/

Including stern pulpit mounted Harken Blocks and light weight sheets 7-1/2 BU's......if you E-bay the 135 for 3 or 4 you can contain the damage.

Gary's # is 805-644-9579

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 07/09/2003 10:00:40

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 11:48:47

At this years Nationals in Syracuse the only wb in the regatta had their jib car trac mounted outboard (above the rub rail) This is the only way you will be able to utilize the 135% head sail you have.

Of course if you had a 2003 wb the 135% would work as designed now that the rigging on both the wb and wk are the same.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 12:33:58

Oscar makes a good argument for the change. Water ballast with the outboard deck lip shrouds are constricted to a 110. The spreaders are too long. I do not know if shorter spreaders could be used... but that would entail shortening the shrouds and cutting off the spreaders. I wouldn't do that without Catalina's blessings as the reduction in spreader length would affect the forward forces on the mast and upset the bisecting angle of the upper shrouds. If your sailing is done in mostly lighter air, this might be a worthwhile pursuit. Generally however, a 110 does well down to 6-8 knot winds which is the point at which a more beneficial light air sail such as the drifter or a cruising chute makes good sense as it will fully exploit those airs with a much larger sail that will shape much better in light air than a genoa.

Your likely aware that the newer water ballast now employ the same rigging as the wing... so using the 135 with a current production water ballast wouldnt' be an issue.

Bryan pointed out that one of the water ballast boats at the Nationals used outboard jib tracks to overcome this problem but the question was, what effect upon performance.

I'm guessing that your boats previous owner...swapped headsails with someone who had the wing perhaps unaware of the spreader length difference. Maybe you could find a swap back.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 12:58:48

Rubin
I just saw a 2003wb and lo and behold, Catalia moved the shrouds inboard to the cabin top as in the WK. They offer a 135 headsail as an option. I emailed Catalina tech to see if a retrofit was possible on my '95 WB and it is,but quite and extensive project due to all the bracing and reinforcing required. I decided I didn't want to butcher my boat to that extent so we've nixed that idea. The US drifter will probably be my next purchase. A high performance headsail might improve performance too but the boat goes well to wind. It's in light air running that performance sucks.

Andy Anderson
CSCO Kid C250WB #163
MHYC McCall Idaho elv. 5000' lat.45N

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 13:31:37

for a novice like me, how does one tell if the jib that came with the boat #370 WB is a 110 or 135? When fully opened from the furler the clew is a bit inside the shrouds

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Rubin Hawkins
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 14:13:04

Jay,
You have a 110.

This is great info. I have no desire to chop up my boat.
(At this years Nationals in Syracuse the only wb in the regatta had their jib car trac mounted outboard (above the rub rail) This is the only way you will be able to utilize the 135% head sail you have.)
I sure would like to see some pictures of that setup. It is pretty clear that Arlyn has already figured out that a drifter is the way to go if you want to keep going is light wind. I think I will just hove to and enjoy some other aspect of being on the water. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>The sail I have has never been used. Looks like eBay time.

Rubin
Windy Joy
C250 WB #591

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 14:42:07

These pictures are in the results of the 2003 Nationals on the racing page. It does not show the jib trac but it shows how big the head sail is. (the wb is the 2nd boat in the picture)

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/racing/pictures/2003_regatta/03nat19.jpg" border=0>

Compare it the the size of the 2 wk boats in the same race

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/racing/pictures/2003_regatta/03nat18.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/racing/pictures/2003_regatta/03nat22.jpg" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da35b3127cce961d8ff3fd0b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 15:04:16

In light and really light air... the drifter makes a great deal of difference. In the pic below... we are ghosting... I am in the inflatable being towed to get this picture. The wind was far too light to fill the heavy headsail... and without the drifter...we would have been motoring for sure. It can be noted...there's not enough wind to heal the boat and there is about 25 miles of wind fetch at the time... and almost no waves...but we're making some weigh.

<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/north%20channel.JPG" border=0>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 07/09/2003 15:09:23

Edited by - on

arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2003 : 22:56:22

Rubin,

I might be interested in buying your 135.

Bill

Bill Swanson
C250WK #614

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bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2003 : 18:36:22

Andy,

Actually, I think they started moving the shrouds to the cabin top with the 2002, as mine, an early 2002, has them there as seen below.

Interestingly, though, when I ordered the boat in Feb of 02 I tried to get it with the 135 and Catalina said they wouldn't sell one with the WB. They said I would have to go to an aftermarket provider. Never got an answer as to why. The dealer said he thought it had something to do with liability, due to a 135 possibly overpowering the boat too easily.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d832b3127cce893e10fffe450000001610" border=0>

I'm curious, what did Catalina quote for the 135. In a couple of our 'fun runs' at the lake last month, Steve's ability to pole out his 135 seemed to make a VERY big difference in speed. More so than I would have thought.

I'm just thinking now, that maybe the person I spoke to at Catalina when I was wanting the 135 didn't realize that the 02 had moved the shrouds and was still under the impression that the WB was limited to the 110 due to the shroud location.

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

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Rubin Hawkins
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2003 : 10:54:57

My 250WB is a 2002. My rigging is different than what I see in Bren's photo. Somewhere between #591 and #642 the shroud change was made. My lines coming off the mast are set up much differently as well. Sure would like to see some closeups Bren!<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Rubin
Windy Joy
C250 WB #591

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 19:18:15

I'll narrow that down for you....Lady Kay WB # 618 with the "old" configuration....wish I knew then what I know now <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>.....then again, I love the drifter, and I'll just have to put some time and e$$ort into leading the lines aft.

Oscar.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2003 : 20:30:52

Oscar, the 110 does good down to the point of drifter ... so a 135 is really no advantage on a cb. Lots of wk get there boats with 110's also if they generally sail in more than light air.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 07/13/2003 23:25:29

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2003 : 23:57:14

Folks,
I have 250WB #655 and my jib track looks exactly like Brens. (A great view can be had under his posted topic, Photos for Oscar). Do you guys mean to tell me that my boat will handle a 135? I spend a lot of time in light air on a small bay where a drifter or a spinnaker would need to come down about 20 minutes after it goes up and would love the added push of a bigger headsail.
Bill

Edgy
Rehoboth Bay, DE

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zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2003 : 19:05:21

I just got back from our harbor working on Papas' Boat and checked my sail bags. Our boat, 1998 250WB #370 came with a 135, and roller furling. It does run into the shrouds when fully extended, even with the long tracks. Wing on Wing is really hard to control. I may have to look into the drifter like Arlyn has set up.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2003 : 20:02:07

After hearing about Arlyn's drifter/reacher sail I went ahead and sprang for one to take to Bimini with me. It was $700. with blocks and sheets. I had a snap shackle on board to put at the tack. I like the drifter because it goes up with jib halyard which is not in use other wise because the 110 jib is on a CDI furler. There is no hanking on the luff. In fact I had my drifter up this morning for a short sail out to the channel of the St. Johns R. and back with my brother. I still need to get a system worked out for setting and dousing the sail. But once it is up it is great.

<img src="http://members.aol.com:/benraye/pitures/drifter.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://members.aol.com:/benraye/pitures/drifter2.jpg" border=0>

Sorry about the pictures. I'm doing everything like I always do and it isn't showing up <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk
<img src="http://www.members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/fullsail.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - ben - fl on 07/18/2003 20:07:05

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2003 : 01:35:55

Hi Ben,

Here are your photos:

<img src="http://members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/drifter2.jpg" border=0>

<img src="http://members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/drifter.jpg" border=0>

MAGIC, huh?! You can't spell! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2003 : 12:33:27

For my two added cents.....I have a 2002 WB hull #619, and I have the inside shrouds. Since Oscar is #618 WB, I guess mine may be the first WB to go to the WK shroud location. By the way, sorry we never got to hook up Rubin, I would have enjoyed seeing some of your mods. Next time indeed!!

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2003 : 19:52:27

Thanks Buzz, I must have been really pooped last night!

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk
<img src="http://www.members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/fullsail.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2003 : 00:17:27

Figures I'd be the last one......that's why she was still sitting around unsold a year later.....I should have come here first.....

Still love her though.....

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2003 : 18:52:56

Ben,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I had a snap shackle on board to put at the tack. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Why don't you run a tack line back to the cockpit so you can abjust the luff?

I don't have a picture of my set up but here is Arlyn's. Mine is the same.

<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/P0000102.JPG" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2003 : 23:39:12

Brian,
I've got a block also, but find it easier to use the shackle up wind.
By the way, what is your procedure to douse the sail and keep it out of the drink? I've been having some problems with my system.

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk
<img src="http://www.members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/fullsail.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2003 : 00:20:37

Ben,

I do it sort of like Arlyn, except I don't have the sail bag attached to the boom.
I go to a broad reach I stand just behind the mast so the main blocks the wind from the drifter I grab the clue and the person in the cockpit eases the tack line and the halyard as I pull the sail down hand over hand into the sail bag that I have a side of stuffed in my pants to help keep it open so I can use 2 hands to stuff. Then I undo the shackles on the tack line and the drifter sheets stow the halyard then take the sail bag below. I leave the sheets and tack line set up ready to go during the sail just in case I want to use the drifter again.

Arlyn has a picture on his web site of how he has the bag fastened to the boom. It's under Drifter/reacher.

I’m not sure but it looks like the way Arlyn is set up you have to be on a starboard tack. That is why I use my pants I can douse on either tack.

Here is a picture of our drifter.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dd05b3127cce95c456d711480000001610" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 11:58:44

So you're a drifter hiding behind a mast stuffing his pants with both hands eh? <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2003 : 12:22:29

Shhhh!
I got everyone convinced that I really do own this boat.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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