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C25 on the starting lines

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jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/18/2003 : 11:46:56

Went out the race the boat this past weekend for the first time - after trying to get our act together for three years. First time I've raced formally in 11 years, first race ever for my trimmer, first sailing less on the the way to the line for my grinder!!

Saturday was the MS Regatta. 127 boats in 8 classes over the same start/finish line in 5 minute intervals. The pre-start area was madness. It was a tactical battle just to get to the line! 6.1 mile course. Broach reach out into the ocean - jibe mark - close reach back - tactical section with an upwind stretch to a mark - short reach then run to the finish. Winds 5 knots with gusts every minute or so up to about 20 knots. Brutal. Had to carry full canvass to keep moving during the lulls but it meant broaches and wipeouts all over the course. Our class had 19 boats. At the jibe mark we were dead last. We picked off 9 or so boats on the second half the course. Dang but these boats smoke upwind compared to others. Made me wonder how to go downwind, though. On corrected time we scored we scored 8th.

Sunday was the second running of the Cupcake Invitational. Cupcake is the unfortunate name of a friend's boat - named by his then 4 year old. It started last year after we were both anchored for the night offa little Island in the bay. Both took off after smack talking on the way home. We got creamed.

This year it was organized, though only four boats participated. Short court - 3 miles. Started in 10 knots, ended in a Zephyr. We won line honors and corrected to stay in first. There is actually a perpetual trophy now - nice to have our name on something. We did great leading out to the weather mark after a great start but got eaten up off the wind on the way back. We got to the finish before being overtaken but only after seeing all but ~ 100 yards of a ~700 yard lead get erased.

So - how do you make these things go downwind!?!?!

Justin

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - on

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 12:16:49

Depending on your class, a spinnaker will give you the best speed dead downwind, or an asymmetrical chute if you're tacking downwind. Lacking the necessary (something always breaks or needs replacing whenever I've save enough for the sail) I pole out my 150% genny and sail wing and wing. A clean bottom (the boat's) is worth a lot in boat speed. Dive down and clean it before racing. Even if you're using a 110% jib upwind, change up to the 150% for the downwind legs, and practice those sail changes. A foil with two tracks and two jib halliards helps a lot with this. Good luck.

Edited by - on

mtiffee
1st Mate

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USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 12:54:02

Also, loosen the main halyard a little, ease the clew outhaul and the cunningham. Sit as far forward in the cockpit as possible and have your crew move to the fore hatch.

Mike

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 13:45:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Also, loosen the main halyard a little, ease the clew outhaul and the cunningham. Sit as far forward in the cockpit as possible and have your crew move to the fore hatch.

Mike

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

While I agree with most of Mike's your adjustments, the positioning of crew weight on the downwind leg is going to be heavily predicated on wave size, frequency and angle, as well as how far your going to head down, or how tight you might be reaching.

If your trying to head down in the puffs, with sizeable waves, you want your weight aft...that way it doesn't dig in to the water when you surf to the bottom of the wave. On a reach, your going to want most of your weight to windward. Choppy seas from a prior days storm will need someone to stand on the keel in the cabin (preferabbly the Fat guy that you can't find a spot for in every other wind condition)

When easing the cunningham, do so only to the point right before the boom begins to bounce. (i.e. leave it tightened just a bit)

As for making them go; Its all about Velocity Made Good. Keep the boat speed up and head down in the big puffs or waves. If Make sure you have someone trimming the spin or jib at all times to get maximum advantage of your up and down movements. Pump your mainsail in once per wave to help lift the boat up to surf (you only get one pump per wave!) On a 26 mile course, I estimated we saved about 30 minutes just by working the waves.

If you have a swing keel, raise it if your local rules allow. Especially in following seas.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/images/layout/category_images/t_3964.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 08/18/2003 13:47:40

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 15:31:06

If you have an adjustable backstay, make sure it is fully eased. Ease the outhaul to put a little "belly" in the foot of the main. And if you do nothing else to the rigging - slacken the aft lowers!!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 19:29:27

Justin,

On the downwind leg, did you pole out your genoa? When I started racing, I did great to windward, and got killed on the downwind leg, just like you. You'll lose a terrible amount of time if you try to sail downwind in light to moderate winds without setting a whisker pole.

Stick with it, and try different solutions, and you'll figure out how to make it go downwind.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

jandrus
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2003 : 21:47:19

Thank you all for the replies.

I did have the headsail poled out on Sunday race. We had it poled briefly on Saturday but had to dodge and weave too much for steady angles. The headsail, btw, is a 135% catalina sails roller furling genny with foam luff. On Sunday the air was light enough that even with the thing poled out it was collapsing as there wasn't enough air to hold it filled, even with crew on the leward side of the boat. Maybe the answer is you just can't go faster in those conditions. The boat that was eating us up had two feet of water line on us. Does it make sense they go faster below hull speed conditions?

BTW - there is no way that in the speed debates 6.3 knots is top speed. We've seen much higher speeds even without surfing conditions.

We need to work on tuning adjustability. I think I'll add a backstay adjuster and work on making my outhaul, cunningham and vang more controlable.

I'm thinking a different head sail may be a help. Obviously larger would be good. How about cut? Material? I have a CDI roller furler so we're going to have to work around that. It could be rigged to permit faster sail changes, though.

jwa

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 09:34:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> We had it poled briefly on Saturday but had to dodge and weave too much for steady angles. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

When you have to dodge and weave a lot downwind, set your pole forward of the shrouds. That way, if you need to head up to a reach, you can ease the jib sheet out until the pole almost touches the headstay. If you need to sail by the lee, you can trim the jib sheet in until the pole almost touches the forward lower shroud. By setting your pole forward of the shrouds, you have a wider range of maneuverability than if you set the pole between the forward lower and the upper shroud.

Also, if you station your crew forward, and you need to gybe the sails, it can be done very quickly and easily in light air. The skipper grasps the mainsheet and pulls the boom over to the opposite side. The crew unclips the pole from the mast, raises the pole straight up over his head to get the sail on the other side of the boat, and reconnects the pole to the mast. While he is doing that, the skipper releases the sheet, and adjusts the sheet on the opposite side. With practice, you can gybe the mainsail and jib back and forth very efficiently.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> On Sunday the air was light enough that even with the [headsail] poled out it was collapsing as there wasn't enough air to hold it filled, even with crew on the leward side of the boat. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

It sounds like you need a longer whisker pole. The pole should be long enough so that it stretches the jib all the way out. Holding the jib out with a pole prevents it from collapsing.

Also, when running in light to moderate air, your crew weight should be to leeward and forward of the mast. The idea is to distribute your movable ballast (crew) so that the boat is floating on the most cylindrical sections of the hull. This generally means heeling the boat over to leeward and trimming down in the bow. This is usually best done by getting your crew's weight clustered just forward of the leeward shrouds. By moving crew weight forward and to leeward, you lift the stern, which reduces the boat’s wetted surface, and consequently reduces drag.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/19/2003 10:08:42

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 12:05:03

"The headsail, btw, is a 135% catalina sails roller furling genny with foam luff"

IMHO... Way too heavy and too small for your Sunday conditions.

You'd need a very light 155 'drifter' in your inventory for that sort of air. Having a very light sail makes a tremendous difference.

This is why racers have bags and bags of sails... With an older boat like a C25 you can quickly (and easily) have far more money tied up in the sails than the boat itself.

The above is why racing is described as the owner standing in a cold shower with 4 other people while slowly tearing up 100 dollar bills..

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 12:06:28

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Bill Sloane
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 15:22:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you have an adjustable backstay, make sure it is fully eased. . . . And if you do nothing else to the rigging - slacken the aft lowers!!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The reason for this is? I don't have an adjustable back stay, but I could loosen it and the aft lowers. Is the point to give the mast a forward rake? I also get dusted downwind, and the thread so far has some good points in terms of crew placement and use of a pole on the head sail.

Bill
Suede Shoes C-25 SR/SK No. 496
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d837b3127cce89df6a2325840000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 16:19:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you have an adjustable backstay, make sure it is fully eased. . . . And if you do nothing else to the rigging - slacken the aft lowers!!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The reason for this is? I don't have an adjustable back stay, but I could loosen it and the aft lowers. Is the point to give the mast a forward rake?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Bill... The tightned backstay adjuster will bend the mast a little, flattening the main, and harden the forestay, flattening the jib. Downwind, you want the opposite--straight mast and sagging forestay for full sails. The slack aft lowers allow the mast to bend when the backstay is yanked down tight, and the forestay to slacken when the backstay adjuster is released.

How was that, racers?? <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 08/19/2003 16:22:43

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 17:45:36

Close enough for government work, Dave! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2003 : 19:32:33

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I don't have an adjustable back stay, but I could loosen it and the aft lowers. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If you don't have an adjustable backstay, and you loosen the backstay and the aft lowers, that might make your boat a little faster downwind, but it won't be able to point very well when you sail to windward.

The purpose of the backstay adjuster is so that you can adjust the mast in two different ways, while you are under way. One way is to tighten the headstay and bend the mast for sailing to windward, and the other way is to loosen the headstay and straighten the mast for sailing downwind. By doing what you suggest, you can't change the adjustment while you are under way.

But, don't feel that you need a backstay adjuster to be competitive. I raced very competitively for many years without using my backstay adjuster. I tuned the rig for sailing to windward, and the boat was very fast to windward as well as downwind. It's nice to have a backstay adjuster, but it is not a must-have item.

Racing downwind is much more difficult than beating to windward. When you are beating to windward, you only have two courses to choose from. You can either beat on starboard tack or beat on port tack.

When you are racing downwind, you can choose any course that is broader than a beam reach on either tack. The course that will get you to your destination in the least amount of time might be straight downwind, or it might be a broad reach on one tack or the other. Likewise, the course that will get you to your destination in the least amount of time might be the shorter, slower course, or it might be a longer, faster course. Figuring out the quickest way to get to a downwind destination is very complicated, but using good downwind strategy is far more important than having a backstay adjuster.

I wrote an article that contains a lot of suggestions on light air and downwind racing. You can download a copy of it at:
http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~rwahlfel/RacingtoWin00.htm

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/19/2003 19:52:49

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