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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Water Ballast Tank

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HGraham
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/27/2003 : 09:09:16

I've had a problem the last three times out. The ballast tank takes over a half hour to fill. And I can't feel any air coming out of the vent. I looked at the valve and the rubber gasket was partially stuck to the hull. The owners manual shows this gasket as free floating, so I un-stuck it. That didn't solve the problem. I tried snaking the vent tube, and that didn't solve the problem.

Anyone ever have this happen to them?

Thanks, Harry

Ovation C250WB#543

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2003 : 09:44:20

Harry,

I've not seen this problem reported previously. As you likely know, normally air can be heard escaping from the vent fitting during ballast fill so something weird is going on.

I'd open the ballast valve while on the trailer and place a water hose into the vent line. I think there is a 90 deg ell attached to the tank to turn the vent line forward so this would block your snake from getting completely to the tank. This can be seen in the V berth locker and if the water hose doesn't clear a possible blockage there, remove the clamps and deal with it there.

One other thought, very often I have to push the ballast valve open after spinning the wing nut up... you might check that the valve shaft is dropping down.

Let the group know what you find.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 08/27/2003 11:42:58

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2003 : 11:27:33

If the vent is unobstructed and not the propblem,

It sounds like the rubber seal might be sticking to the hull and the water pressure outside vs. air inside would create a seal......

You could dive on it and take a look next time you launch....

Possibly have to glue the seal to the disc (valve)

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 08/27/2003 11:29:04

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Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2003 : 12:38:50

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>One other thought, very often I have to push the ballast valve open after spinning the wing nut up... you might check that the valve shaft is dropping down.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I also have to push the valve down every time I fill it but not when I empty the tank (I think the water pressure forces the valve open). Harry does it also take a half hour to let the water out when you empty the tank while on the trailer?

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2003 : 14:32:15

Ray,

Ditto on having to push the threaded rod/nut down. In fact, I usually place something on it to weight it down until it fills, which takes the advertised 6-7 minutes.

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 06:50:51

The 6-7 min. timeframe is a good point Bren. Mine also takes about that. Harry if you were not sure, that should be the time yours takes to fill when your problem is solved.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - on

HGraham
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 09:26:40

Ray, the tank does drain out in the 6-7 minute time, and I didn't think of this earlier, but while the tank is draining I should be able to feel a suction at the vent. I will check that out this weekend. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a water hose at the lake, but that certainly would tell the tale if the vent is obstructed.
I'm thinking it is probably the rubber gasket that "floats" up even when I push the valve stem down. I will either glue it to the disc or cut it off altogether.

Thanks for the feedback, Harry

Ovation C250WB#543

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 10:26:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I will either glue it to the disc or cut it off altogether.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Whoaa...don't cut it off, there's times you need to float her as high as you can....and I'm sure others will come up with better reasons...

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 11:03:45

One more time, a big Texas Whoaa.... the gasket is important. Here's a couple of the reasons why.

If the seal is not good , then the ballast tank continues to try to fill at the possible cost of a sinking. Remember, the ballast valve is a hole in the bottom of the boat. If the ballast tank should spring a leak [knocking on wood] , it wouldn't be pretty.

Here is a true story from our archives and I don't in any way mean to embarass the owner... any one of us is subject to getting into something unforseen and most of us have... some of us even admitting it.

A C/B owner returned to his slip after a couple of months of winter inactivity to discover his boat with water up to the cushions. What happened? He had left his ballast valve open which normally isn't a problem. But, rising water on the lake brought the dock lines taught which submerged the boat slightly... just enough to lower the valve shaft hole below the water line... and water began seeping in.

If no hose is available, use a funnel and bucket to ensure the vent line is clear.

I just checked my seal...and it is adheared to the valve. I don't know if this was intentional or has become stuck there over time. Gluing it is a good idea...ensure that no excess can squeese up to also glue it then to the hull. In fact, it probably wouldn't hurt to lubricate the hull lip with a film of silicone spray.

Last, there have been some who have had problems resulting from bottom paint. The seal should be masked to prevent bottom paint from getting on it.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

HGraham
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2003 : 15:10:37

Thanks, guys, for the suggestions. This weekend I was able to get on the water again. I forgot to pack the adhesive for the rubber gasket, but I did have electrical tape, so I taped the gasket to the plug. That fixed the problem. Next time out I will glue it properly.

Hope you all had good weather this weekend.

Harry

Ovation C250WB#543

Edited by - on

BillP.
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 20:13:56

Looking to buy a water ballast boat and the only ones I know of are the Catalina 250 and the Hunter 260. (I'm trying to find a boat big enough for one week+ with 2 adults and 2 kids). Without starting a war and understanding the bias, any thoughts? Boat will stay in the water which brings me to the next question - given that when I bring her in and out I need to minimize draft, can I drain the WB with the boat in the water?

Thanks folks - fair winds,

Bill

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 20:41:05

Bill;
I think that you will find may happy 250 owners on this forum, that certainly include me.
I usually "blow" the balast out of my tank prior to hauling the boat. I genreally wate until I'm at the launching ramp to blow the balast as the boat is much less stable without the balast. I think you could get away with motoring the boat without balast but there isn't anything to stop it from rolling over. To blow the balast I attach a large foot opeated air pump, one used to blow up an inflatable boat, to the vent hose located in the chain locker. I open the bottom drain valve and pump away. It usually takes about 7 minutes to see bubles coming out from under the boat. The boat floats at least 6" higher in the water and loads on the trailer like a dream.
Others can better comment on crusing with the 250 with a heard of kids, I generally sail the boat with just my wife and I.
Best of luck with your decision.
Bill c250wb #134
Serendipity

Edited by - bill bosworth on 09/23/2003 20:43:51

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BillP.
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 21:03:55

Just to check - I can in fact empty the the ballast tank without taking the boat out of the water - good - I'll need every inch to get out of the bayou I live on. Without the water ballast she is really unstable huh?

Thanks!

Bill

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 22:04:19

Bill,

I often do the same and blow the ballast prior to loading... sometimes its a necessity and when doing, any decent ramp will provide an easy launch and retrieve.

I've motored away from a congested ramp several times prior to loading ballast and felt no concern.

As to comfort... I've overnighted with wife, two grandkids age 3 & 5 and a 24 lb Sheltie dog, cruised 9 days with three adults, cruised this year 24 days with two aboard + dog and had no problems.

I don't recall if the Hunter 260 has an open transom... but with kids... the open transom and swim ladder are a huge benefit. The grandkids have no problem getting themselves in and out of the boat unassisted. When sailing... they love to sit with their legs thru the swim ladder and dangle their feet in the water.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 08:32:10

Bill,
I "blew" the ballast on my C 250 W.B. last Wednesday afternoon with a low pressure vacumn cleaner. I then motored about three miles to a ramp and a beach where I scrubbed the bottom of the boat. I do find the boat to be a little more squirly with tiller inputs. This is the
third year of blowing the ballast and it does raise the boat about six inches, I also have gone through one to foot waves in this condition and does tend to raise and lower the bow as if you were in a
"stinkpot" The swing keel was also up. No concerns at all about motoring in this configuration. "Bear" on Brandy C 250 WB

Edited by - on

BillP.
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 11:43:57

SO when you all "blow" the ballast, does it get "all" the water out? And I like the idea of the non-manual pump - most from the standpoint of work load as I single hand most of the time. If I can plug in a pump/vac and turn off when the bubbles start I can be doing other stuff as well. One of the boats would allow you to drain the ballast while motoring as long as you were doing about 6 knts. Assume that is the Hunter given I've not seen it in this thread.

Thanks again folks - I hope to see one of these boats in person soon!

Bill

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 00:07:36

I just had a brain wave.....If I were to put a "scoop" around the ballast valve with the opening to rearward, would it "suck" the tank dry with the valve and vent open......at 5 knots, 1 or so miles from the ramp, open the valve, arrive at the ramp with empty tank....

Anyone?

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 07:03:52

The mac 26x blows the ballast by something similar...

Mentioned before is that an electric air pump could also be permanently mounted in the V berth locker and teed to the vent line.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 22:07:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Mentioned before is that an electric air pump could also be permanently mounted in the V berth locker and teed to the vent line.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thought about that too. If anyone wants to do that I highly recommend a shutoff to keep water out of the pump when not in use. (Be a nasty way to go blub blub.....)

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

Rubin Hawkins
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 22:23:56

Oscar,
Your idea about a scoop would create a venturi and suck the water out of the tank. Without some positive pressure on the inside of the tank or a method of knowing when the tank was full you would simply start filling again once you slowed down. Interesting idea.

Rubin
Windy Joy
C250 WB #591

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 23:12:10

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...If I were to put a "scoop" around the ballast valve with the opening to rearward, would it "suck" the tank dry with the valve and vent open......at 5 knots, 1 or so miles from the ramp, open the valve, arrive at the ramp with empty tank....
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
One reaction: I have to believe that a half-empty ballast tank is considerably less stable than an empty one--just as water in a dinghy makes it extremely unstable. So, as you approach that ramp, be careful! <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2003 : 08:35:55

You mean a gentle right turn for a perfect approach onto the trailer and suddenly you're heeling 45 degrees, all the stuff below is flying, wife and kids are falling overboard and the engine is screaming it's head off swatting skeeters.....hmmm, I see where that could be a problem <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/27/2003 08:37:39

Edited by - on

jfesi
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2003 : 13:29:03

I had a similar problem a couple of years ago when the ballast tank refused to fill. A little underwater exploration revealed that the gasket from the valve's pancake disc had floated up and sealed off the entry port. Before the next time we launched, I glued the gasket back down and have had no problems since. I don't remember what type of glue I used but I think it was silicon rubber.

A couple of comments on later issues raised in this thread: There is another reason why it is important that this gasket be in place and functional. When the boat heels while sailing, a portion of the ballast water is raised above the water line. If the valve is not sealed shut, the water could drain out and reduce the ballasting action.

It is also important that the wingnut be down and tight against its rubber seal. Again, while heeling this seal is below the waterline and it will drip water continuously into the bilge if not tight. I found 4 inches of water in my bilge after a weekend of sailing and was very dismayed until I found the source. To my mind, one of the great advantages of the 250 is the lack of underwater thru-hulls. Insurance records show that the far majority of boats that sink do so at the dock.

With regard to the 250's stability without ballast, I only have a little experience, maybe 1/4 mile of slow motoring in calm conditions, but I would describe it as noticeably tippier in response to moving around in the cockpit but it was not unstable. There is form stability at work here as well as the weight of the ballast. However, I would definitely be leery about sailing it without ballast and the instruction manual says to never do that.

Fred Flemming
flemmifc@apci.com
Pride of Macungie
C250 water ballast, Hull 92, 1995

Edited by - on

azexploder
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2003 : 23:12:48

I just dropped the valve to inspect the gasket on my 1995. It was stuck only in less than 1 sq inch to the sainless. Scrubbed all the gasket material and cleaned the gasket. Will reseal with BoatLife after it dries out.

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