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Frog's Pictures

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/28/2003 : 10:22:15

In order to expedite the viewing of 12 pictures, and not having to reload them every time you want to read the thread, I've posted Frog's pictures to my web-site:

http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Frog'sFright.html

http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Frog'sFright2.html

(Frog, I managed to brighten them up a little bit for clarity)

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 10:40:31

Ouch! Looks like the hull came off the aft bunks and rode for a while on the steel cross-beam with the keel off its support, and then somebody wedged that piece of carpeting in later. There's no way that keel should be riding canted like that with no support--it twists the hull every time the trailer hits a stone. The crazing in the hull around that area could be fatigued fiberglass--hard to tell from the photos...

I think Frank needs to see that, and more. Don't let them do any work on it till he does--unless they let you out of it now. My 18-year-old boat has probably never had that kind of treatment.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 08/28/2003 10:50:02

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 11:11:49

Do the guys here who trailer all the time think that the boat was adequately secured on the trailer? Looks like a dearth of tie-downs to me.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 11:21:55

Did you get the name of the trucking company? Accidents are one thing, but to think the truckers were going to deliver it with that kind of damage & not report the problem when it occurred is completely irresponsible!

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 12:08:33

Something possible, is that it's an inhouse truck which might have Catalina avoiding an insurance claim. Even if its not, it might be and ongoing contractor who is family to Catalina.

I'm with the others here... thinking that some challenge may be ahead.

I really like Dave's suggestion to demand that they pay "Your Surveyor" which seems without question needed to protect your interest if they intend to impress this boat upon you. With such, if going to arbitration... your concerns would have technical merit. My divergence from Dave would be, that your surveyor be able to inspect the boat both before, during and after repairs.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 08/28/2003 12:11:53

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 13:06:55

Forget repairs forget surveys. If you ordered a new car and it fell off of the truck on the way to the dealer NO ONE would even consider letting the manufacture repair it. I damn sure would NEVER except a boat that could have hidden structural damage that may not appear for 5 or 6 years.

Besides what surveyor would want this liability? I don't care how good the surveyor is they can't predict the future nor do they have x-ray vision. There is no way you can be totally sure that the hull in the same condition as it was when it left the factory.

I personally feel (hope anyway) that this thread is about nothing. Catalina is going to do the correct thing and do what it takes to satisfy the customer. If they don't I will think twice before I purchase a new 310 that I'm now considering.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 13:24:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> a boat that could have hidden structural damage that may not appear for 5 or 6 years.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Bingo....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 14:57:43

Bryan,

This was the latest we heard from the buyer...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Now for the latest. Frank called again today and said the boat, according to his foreman, was not damaged that bad and would only take 2-3 hours to repair. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I completely agree with you... this is a boat that potentially received more than cosmetic damages... and acceptance should be completely within the realm of the willingness of the buyer for which most of us would likely say...nay.

Your point about a surveyor not being able to verify the long term intergrity is exactly the point and the leverage that the buyer may need to deny the boat.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 16:39:30

I agree, now that I've seen the pictures.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 16:44:37

HOT NEWS

Dealer just called they will begin production of the General's new boat on Tuesday. I asked the dealer what they are going to do with 734. He said get some dealer to buy it, but not him!!!!

Thanks to all for their moral support and advice.

Regards

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 16:54:21

THAT'S GREAT!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

That's the Catalina I thought would emerge from this! Sorry, though, it will be another six weeks or so. . .

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 17:07:16

I think were talking a very close look at SN's over the next couple of years.

Frog & General... were sorry to hear about the unfortunate wait... but glad to hear the outcome.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 17:48:38

734....734......734......]

It's nice they're taking care of Frog, but I do hope they'll disclose it to another buyer......I wonder, Is it legal to take it back to the factory "refurbish" it maybe fill in the # and put it back in the line out the door with a new number "as good as new"? "Accidents" happen in the production process too (kinda like dropping a tomato in the kitchen of a restaurant) You pick it up, dust it off, and if you don't see any damage you put it back on the conveyor belt...... It's a thin line......and where is the line......what all goes on back stage.....maybe we don't want to know....just go sailing and don't worry about it...........oooohhhmmmmm!<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 08/28/2003 18:18:43

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 18:08:15

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Catalina is going to do the correct thing and do what it takes to satisfy the customer. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That's the Catalina I thought would emerge from this! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'm happy to hear Catalina satisfied the customer. I think that is why most of us love the Catalina family.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 20:49:12

Well, congratulations, Jerry and Sandy--if that's the appropriate term... Stuff happens, and the mark of a good choice in boat builders is that they take care of you when it happens. I really thought Frank would come through for you, and he did. I'm wondering though--did he try to find an inventory boat at another dealer? I'd bet anything that there are 250WKs available if you wanted earlier delivery--dealers who have them are facing another winter before they can deliver them.

One way or another, it's another few months of anticipation, and you do, after all, have a C-25 on which to console yourselves!

My faith is restored.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Earl Landers
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 21:47:50

Dave,
There is a new 250 WK sitting on a galvanized trailer at my local Catalina dealer right now and they would love to sell it. Unfortunately, it's on the West coast <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Earl Landers
'83 C25 SR/SK
"Gentle Spirit"
http://home.bak.rr.com/edlgs

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 22:08:06

I have one final thought on the subject.......

Wonder if the folks at Catalina put their finger on the pulse, checked out the forum, and when the 12 pictures showed up and the troops were in uproar they made their decision, it is after all a business decision.

Being devils advocate I wonder what would have happened if Frog was a customer fending all by himself....or am I giving our organization too much credit?

Remember, just 'caus you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.....<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2003 : 23:21:16

Well, Oscar, I'll submit that the way you get an owner's association like this one is by giving the potential owners a great product, and by taking care of the real owners who've bought it. Catalina just took care of another one--despite some questionable information from that "foreman". Now I can yearn for that 310 with confidence! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 01:05:25

Frank did see the pictures and did offer to extend the warrantee, but my gut just kept telling me NO. I am no a structual engineer, but when you put the kind of vector loads on something like a suspended appendage that was designed for pure vertical loads the only things that happen are all bad. This boat travel in this position for a least four hours. It's kind like turning your head at a 45 degree angle then making a 180 at 4-5G's. First you could not straighten your head and second when you rolled out your neck would feel like someone had been banging on it with a 2x4. Try it the next time you ride a roller coaster.

Again thanks to all for the advice and moral support.

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 15:24:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...when you put the kind of vector loads on something like a suspended appendage that was designed for pure vertical loads the only things that happen are all bad. This boat travel in this position for a least four hours.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
While the hull/keel joint is designed for some angular forces (as when heeling), it probably isn't designed for the angular SHOCK loads that would be transmitted when the trailer hits anything--especially the shock that followed the boat being tossed off center like that. In fact, it's not supposed to be shipped without proper support under the keel--even if it's sitting straight up on all of the bunks.

After this, if I ever have a boat shipped, I'll have the shippers contact me to meet it at the destination--before it's unloaded.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2003 : 16:44:04

Correct shock loads equal G-force. In the water, when on a heeling angle, the only vector force is the keel itself at a 1G state which is also suspended in a median, therefore no additional G loading unless you run aground.

I intend to be there when the new boat arrives hopefully in better shape.

Frog and the General
79 C25 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 00:26:26

Received an EM from the dealer and he informs me that the new boat is due to be completed on 10/10/03. Get this the new boat's hull/sail # is 743. Kind of SPOOKY huh?

Frog and The General
<img src="http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/3f514bcf_339f/bc/boats/__tn_Pretty+Penny.jpg?bc2LWU_AhL8DufLw" border=0>
79 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 00:52:07

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Get this the new boat's hull/sail # is 743. Kind of SPOOKY huh? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

What are the chances of that!!!

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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