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Researching trailerable sailboats

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tavanw
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/08/2003 : 21:42:12

Hey crew,

This is a great forum. Congratulations.

I'm researching trailerable sailboats and could use some (semi) unbiased advice from you veterans. I'm not an experienced sailor, but have spent a lot of time on the ocean(s) - ex-Naval Officer (but aviation). ;-) I just completed a keelboat sailing course (Orange Coast College in Newport Beach, CA). I have a family of 3 (including me) so we don't need a lot of boat, but I do plan on sailing her on the open ocean and nearby harbors (Newport and San Diego). Weekend trips to Catalina Island, etc.

I've just gotten started, but I've done a little research on the MacGregor 26M and the Hunter 260, and of course the Catalina 250. To be honest, my wife won't go for the spartan appointments of the Mac. However, I do like it's ability to cruise.

Basically, what were the main factors that caused you to select the Catalina over other options? Also, I'd like to know your thoughts on buying new versus used. Is there a particular year I should avoid or prefer? Lastly, can they be equipped with a shower (again, the wife). :-)

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Troy

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 22:29:01

Welcome...you've come to the right place! (Except for the unbiased part, because we are all partial to our Catalina's so don't use the H or McG word here....<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>)

There is a wealth of information on this forum, and whatever hasn't been discussed yet, can and will be tackled by a plethora of knowledgeable enthusiasts.

My choice was determined by interior space, (there's two big ones and two little ones on the crew) and trailerability. (waterballast is good <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) Also, the admiral wanted a real head. As far as sailing, the McG (oops I said it) does not sail as well as the C250, period. And that is physics and not emotion. And driving around at 35 knots in a sailboat is goofy. (Thats a matter of taste....but hey, it's kinda like flying an Aircoupe...know what I mean?)

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Lastly, can they be equipped with a shower (again, the wife). :-)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Sun shower on deck? I guess you could create a fold up stall to set up in the pop top.....but you're going to need shore power to make hot water....so you might as well hop off and use the marina facility.

(I had to swear a solemn oath that we would be in a NICE marina with CLEAN showers EVERY night) Hey lots of guys have wives that won't go along at all, so whatever it takes to make her happy.....like the air conditioner I'm about to install...<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

As far as new or used.....if, big if, you can find a well equipped, well cared for, not too old, and equipped just the way you want it used boat, it's a better deal. But the odds on finding all that are slim. So the choices are: Get a used one, and spend money cleaning it up, and fixing it up and equipping it right, or get a new one and spend money fixing the quirks and equipping it right. I went the latter route......At least I know all the dings scratches and dirt are mine.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>ex-Naval Officer (but aviation)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Landing airplanes on a boat? Not me, land at the aerodrome (B737/757/767) drive to the bay, sail the boat. Two different subjects. Although as far as learning to sail, you have a head start. Sailboat's an airplane on it's side. One foil up, two down. It's all about lift/drag: chord, camber, laminar flow, and dynamic stability. Nav and weather is the same. So, you'll be having fun in no time.

As far as what to look for, for trailering you need a Water ballast. Best we can determine, somwhere around hull # 650...mid 2002? Some changes were made to the rig: The shrouds were moved from the very edge of the boat to the cabin top, which allows for a jib bigger than the 110% it came with up to that point. Also, some of the sail control lines were led aft to the cockpit. There are other improvements made over the model years, I'm sure others will chime in.....

Oh, if someone offers you a heck of a deal on hull number 734 (a wing keel) check with this forum first.....

Keep us posted, and good luck.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/08/2003 22:45:06

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 22:45:37

Welcome, Troy! Having gone through the selection process a few years ago, I can offer a few opinions, all of them debatable...

When you say trailerable, do you plan to take the boat from venue to venue, or just store on a trailer? Do you plan to find a place to keep her in the water? These questions relate to the wing keel versus water ballast issue, where the WK has more headroom below, and the WB is easier to launch and tow.

Versus the Mac and the Hunter... The Mac 26X/M is a "in a class by itself" both in design and quality. Besides looking at a few in some shows, the only thing I know about them is that watching one bobbing like a cork on a mooring in our harbor, I can't imagine sailing it on Long Island Sound in seas above a couple of feet.

The Hunter 260 is definitely a bigger boat than the 250, but dollar-for-dollar, the quality doesn't come close, IMHO. I was startled by the fragility of the rig of an H-240 (the little brother) in our club when a shroud caught a piling as he was backing out of his slip--the mast snapped like the toothpick that it is. A backstay may have kept it up, but Hunter doesn't believe in them.

We bought a well-used fin keel C-25 because of budget contraints, but after seeing the new crop, I was convinced that the C-250 was the best investment and the best boat in its class. I have no regrets about our C-25--I suspect it's a slightly less tender, more seakindly boat for our Long Island Sound sailing than even the C-250. Either way, Catalina just seems to have the best formula for value, performance, comfort, and style that will wear well on the market. Add to that a customer-oriented company and this Web forum, and well..... <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 09/09/2003 15:14:37

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 23:43:52

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>These questions relate to the wing keel versus water ballast issue, where the WB has more headroom below, and the WK is easier to launch and tow.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think Dave meant to say:

where the WK has more headroom below, and the WB is easier to launch and tow.

Catalina is the best choice of the 3 you mentioned or any boat in it’s class and price range.

I would not take a Hunter or a Mac. They don't sail as well as a Catalina. I agree with Oscar. If you can find a used boat with all the goodies you want and it is in good shape then used might be the way to go.

IMHO the WK is the way to go. The WK is more time consuming to launch but rigging is the same on both boats as of mid 2002. If you have a big enough tow vehicle it won't care if it is pulling a WK or a WB.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

sdaly66
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 08:21:24

Trpy,

Those are the same 3 that I looked at before buying my 96 Catalina 250WB about a month ago.

So here's my take...

The 26M was VERY limited in the cockpit space - due mostly to the large pedestal and the large size of the aft berth below decks.

The H's, 240 and 260, were nicely set up in the cokcpit, but the interior was lacking in form and function.

Why I shose the Catalina....

In addition to my wife, I have two sons (8 and 4) and another on the way. The Catalina cockpit is quite roomy (with tiller steering) and we spend the vast majority of our time there. The interior is basically for sleeping and cooking.

Inside, the Catalina has an ENCLOSED HEAD LOCKER. You may not appreciate it right now, but it turns out to be great. We sleep the four of us WITHOUT USING THE REAR BERTH. That's how sweet the interior is. Now, I'm not 6'3" or anything, but we all sleep comfortably in the V berth and on the benches.

I have fallen in love with this boat and can not recommend it highly enough.

This site is a GREAT resource full of VERY helpful folks.

250 WB 1996 Hull #205

Thank you all.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 11:29:03

One not so minor detail. If I remember correctly the beam on the H 260 is over 8'6"......in most, if not all, states that requires a PERMIT to go over the road. And you need a permit for every state you go through, and they cost $$$. Also, there are restrictions which are, of course, different for every state. Things like: No movement on weekends/No movement after sunset. Etc. etc.....Personally I want nothing to do with all that. There are folks, including dealers, that will tell you "It's not a propblem as long as you keep it under 9'6".....tell that to the pro-bono lawyer for the family of nine at the other table who's 15 year old Yugo you creamed with your filthy rich bas^%$* yacht.......<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/09/2003 11:34:07

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 14:52:48

On the question of buying new or used, I suggest you buy new if you are sure you will keep the boat for a long time. Buy used if you are likely to sell it or trade up. I bought mine new over 20 years ago, and when amortized, it has not been expensive. Like automobiles, a boat's resale price takes a big hit in the first few years. After that, they hold their value very well.

Hot water and showers are a little hard to find in a boat under 30 feet, and they're even rarer in a boat without an inboard engine. If those are a must-have, then you should look at a used boat. A nice used C-30 with inboard, hot water and shower can be found in the $25,000 range, and a nice used C-27 can be found for somewhat less.

Of the three choices you mention, I like the C-250. I've been crewing on some this summer, and they're fun boats.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 15:20:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think Dave meant to say:

where the WK has more headroom below, and the WB is easier to launch and tow.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Yup, Bryan... Thanks. But I DID say that--you can check! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 15:32:26

Nice try Dave, you old fox, but you know you edited your original post!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 18:31:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Yup, Bryan... Thanks. But I DID say that--you can check! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dave, you had me going there for a minute.<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> It was pretty late last night when I read that.

Then I noticed the edit date and time.<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Rubin Hawkins
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 19:36:32

I picked the C250 WB because I wanted a boat that would trailer easily. The H 260 is larger but requires permits to trailer in most states. The 26M was the first boat that caught my eye but the more I learned the worse it looked. A Cold shower is easy once you get a blaster pump and are at not at a marina. Extra water is easy with a Plastimo flexible water bag. I have a small Air Conditioner and a generator again for when not at a marina. I looked at boats for well over a year before deciding. I bought used but it was barely a year old. I would have purchased new if I had not found this one. If a trailer boat is the goal then the c250 is the best choice.
Good luck.

Rubin
Windy Joy
C250 WB #591

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 10:47:46

Damn... Can't get one past you guys! But that was the most fun I've had since we sailed Sunday! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 10:56:24

Troy... here is a link to a "Letter to Rik" that I offered some time back... his question was a little more involved than yours but basically the same... the read may be helpful.

http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rik.html

To more specifically answer the question new or used... I think it depends on two issues.

First, do you want salty lines and traditional interior and lots of teak? If yes, then think used. Prices of those kind of boats has risen greatly. A new boat constructed like the more traditional Catalina 25 would likely run 40k and can be had used for 10-15k. Perhaps why Catalina stopped producing them... they were too plentiful on the used market.

If salty lines aren't your thing, the newer models like the c250 are more appealing.

Second, easy trailering in a 25 footer was birthed with the advent of water ballast.... which has no previous aged equals. Please note that I used the word "easy" which means that other boats such as the c25 wing are certainly trailerable... but require more in the way of tow vehicle and ramp or lift. Water ballast boats pull easy and launch anywhere a sport fishing boat can.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr5.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 09/10/2003 10:59:55

Edited by - on

tavanw
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 14:02:14

Thank you all so much for the great feedback. I firmly believe that passion for a sailboat says a lot about it - and you are certainly passionate about your C250's. You are an asset to the community.

I will be attending the Long Beach Boat show in October and will definately be spending a lot of time on board the C250. It appears my biggest questions will be on new vs. used, and timing. I'll be checking listings during the off season to see if anything comes on the market.

Any suggestions on getting some time on the water with one before I "take the plunge"? Do yacht dealers offer "test drives or rides"?

Troy

Edited by - on

tavanw
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 14:07:47

Arlyn,

Thanks for sending the link to the "Letter to Rik". You have an impressive amount of knowledge regarding the C250!!!

I noticed that you sail the Great Lakes often. I grew up in MI and my parents have a summer cottage on Lake Huron in Caseville (tip of the thumb near Port Austin). Have you ever spent any time there?

In the future, I plan on spending some time sailing "back home".

Troy

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 16:15:44

Troy,

I war raised near the small village of Harrisville along the northeast coast. Never had the opportunity to visit within the thumb...

I consider my haul from Texas to there as reasonable to do every year... in part because visiting family is part of the experience. From California... its a doable haul but perhaps less often.

Spent some time in your back yard at Mission Viejo (sp) near Dana Point in recent years. It's beautiful there. Regretfully, I didn't get a chance to sail to Catalina... Would love to have enjoyed the feeling of the ocean swell.

However, While sailing in Canada this summer, I met a nice Canadian gentlemen (retired school teacher) who told a story as we set in his cockpit and gazed across the anchorage and swooned over a Seaward 25. He narrated, "I answered a request for sailing crew in Florida a couple of years ago on a boat just like that one. We coastal sailed from the west coast down to the keys and back. He called the following season to invite me again and I told him I'd pass. He asked if there had been a problem with either he or his boat? None with either... its the saltwater."

I don't know if its familiarity of the Great Lakes and fresh water or spoiled by it... but I identified with the gentlemen.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr5.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 09/10/2003 16:18:48

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 22:11:47

Arlyn... I grew up in the Chicago area, and spent many summers on the Great Lakes, generally suspecting that salt water must be strange, obnoxious stuff. I swam in salt water just a few times as a kid, and was surprised and amused by it. In the past 25-or-so years by Long Island Sound, I've come to appreciate salt water as a source of life--even including life that annoys boaters. By comparison, I find the Great Lakes to be somewhat devoid of life. I know there are fish out there somewhere, and I hear zebra mussels are causing problems (because they've thrown the environment out of balance)... But not clams, blue crabs, spider crabs, horseshoe crabs, lobsters, eels, egrets, herons, pellicans, cormorants, gulls, jellyfish, seals,... and yes, barnacles. Now, I look at Lake Michigan and see water and sand; but not much else. For sailing, I see miles and miles of barren beaches, straight as a string, with very few places to go or to hide. On Northern Huron, I see water that's liquid only for a few months, and could kill you in a few minutes during those months. Good for drinking, but tough on life. (Did you know that it's several times easier to drown in fresh water than in salt water, due to the damage fresh water does to your lungs?)

These observations aren't necessarily all rational--just perceptions, from the other side of the fence.

Funny how perceptions change...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2003 : 23:24:14

Dave, perspectives are an interesting study...

While in the Army and finishing up my hitch in southern Ga., some buddies persuaded me to drive to the Atlantic coast... after all, I'd never stood next to an Ocean. They were after a ride... I had wheels.

When arriving, I wondered what the deal was...looked just like the lake back home.

Snorkeling on the north coast of Haiti gave me my strongest involvement with salt water... it stung my eyes and it was more difficult to swim under water... and the beach sand was impossible to walk on. The tropical fish were abundant however and as beautiful as any thing I guess I've ever seen.

Whoa...Cormorants...You missed my Cruise 2000 read when we were doing one of those ninety mile runs, this one down Michigan's east coastline which has several points to clear. I had napped and with groggy head came up from the cabin and looking landward noted the Thunder Bay Light House and that we were stood off an appropriate distance. I turned to the father and son team who crewed with me that year and gazing beyond them a couple hundred yards was startled by the patch of marsh grass a half mile wide by a mile long on the seaward side.

Instantly, I inquired about the depth, and if we were where we should be... somewhat struggling all the time with the fact that I'd just verified that we were standing out proper from Thunder Bay Island. My brother in law looked at me as to inquire what I was driving at... "The frigging marsh grass," I exclaimed. He broke out in a possum eating grin... "Thats not marsh grass, its Cormorants". I cleared my eyes and head... sure enough, the largest roosting of water birds I'd ever seen floated seaward of us.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr5.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

SoCalGary
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 20:24:56

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>


...Any suggestions on getting some time on the water with one before I "take the plunge"? ....
Troy
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Troy, like you, I have been looking at the 250 for quite a while. If not for life changing events, such as getting married and having children (I know this should not stop me), I would be the proud owner of a 250 by now.

I have been "lurking" on this site for some time and may actually have something to add on how to get on the water aboard with a 250.

Although I can not vouch for the quality of the rental fleet, SeaForth Boat Rentals (www.seaforthboatrental.com) in San Diego has Catalina Wing Keel 250's that are available for rent. I called around and the oldest is around a 1999 or 2000 and some are 2001's.

Renting from their location at the San Diego Marriott and Marina is $170 for 4 hours and around twice that for 8 hours; lots of $$$.

I am not affiliated with this company and do not know anyone who has rented from them.

Maybe someone in the San Diego, Orange County or LA area will be stuck needing crew and will offer up a ride. I can pull jib sheets and wash down a boat with the best of them.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Take care, SoCalGary

Edited by - on

tavanw
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2003 : 09:59:41

Gary,

Thanks for the input. I'll look into the rentals as well as crewing for someone else. Best of luck on your search.

I read an interesting article in the September issue of Sail magazine about partnerships. Basically, you purchase the boat jointly, share all expenses as well as the time. It intrigued me and the cost of ownership get's very attractive. It might be worth reading...

Troy

Troy VanWormer

Edited by - on

River Harley
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2003 : 19:34:49

We love our C250 WK in every way!!! A word about a shower. At the local GI Joes store here, we found a neat product. The unit is about the size of a car battery. The cover removes and serves as a reservoir for water. A hose attaches from the reservoir to a heating unit powered by the typical small round propane cannisters (all pieces fit inside the cover when stored). Assisted by a small pump (which comes as part of the entire unit), the water passes through the heating device for almost instant hot water via the included hose and shower head. A great idea for a boat like the C250. Price: $125

River Harley

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 17:49:55

You may have already seen the ad in the Swap Meet, but I thought just in case I would bring it to your attention. The boat is just north of you, wing keel so it may not be as trailerable as you want, but the price sounds right if it is as advertised.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

Edited by - on

Steve leBlanc
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 21:01:36

I own a MacGregor M25, 1986. It's a nice boat but it's a dark boat also. Dark meaning, very sparce below deck, little light gets in, always dirty looking below deck. I picked it up used for 2800.00 so I really cannot complain. Over the weekend I went to the International boat show and climed aboard a Catalina 250, wing keel model. Very airy and light below deck. The layout was much nicer, cleaner, roomer. My wife, who is 5'3" could stand up below deck, me at 6'1" had to stoop a little, but not as bad as on my M25, which is sit and move around. She stated "I like this boat much better than ours". This gave me the green light to start really looking to buy. I have always liked the way Catalina's are layed out and with a company thats been around 25+ years, yoiu have a pretty stable resource of parts. If someone were to ask me, which tarilerable to get and you are only going to use it for coastal, some overnights to catalina island, playng around off the coast, I would recommend a Cat over a Mac. I also like the size of the cock pit, a bit larget looking than the Mac. The spreaders look much sturdier, turnbuckle adjustmnts on all the rigging, over adjusters. A much cleaner and easier boat to maintain. My only concern will be backing a wing keel boat in the water. But heck, if I can back down the oceanside ramp, a wing keel trailer, extended, at Dana Point should b no problem..

SL

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 22:38:35

Steve, it seems you've seen the light and are ready to make a switch. It's never too late. Welcome aboard. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Now all you have to do is figure out a way to dispose of the "M" thing in a way that will let you sleep at night.......

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/Glitter2.JPG" border=0>

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.