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Which generation rudder?

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Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/20/2003 : 21:56:32

I've read various threads discussing the merits of the "3rd generation" rudder and how disgusted people were with the 1st generation. Is there an easy way to identify which one is which? I bought my 1997 250wk (hull #270) used, and I don't think the previous owner did anything to it. The one pictured is 76" long. (The image is sideways to better fit this post.)
<img src="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/davendeb/misc/rudder.jpg" border=0>
Since I back in to my slip, I pulled my rudder in preparation for Isabel and I'm really glad I did. A nearby boat broke loose during Isabel and wedged itself between my boat's stern and the dock. It banged up my swim ladder, but the rudder would have been toothpicks if I'd left it on.

Dave & Deb
<img src="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/davendeb/boat/images/thumbnails/boat.jpg" border=0>
"Frayed Knot"
C-250wk #270

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2003 : 22:25:05

Dave and Deb,

Y'all have the 2nd... it is about 17.5 inches longer than the 3rd.

The swim ladder is easy to replace if its damaged... your 2nd generation rudder would not be available, unless finding used.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2003 : 19:41:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Y'all have the 2nd... it is about 17.5 inches longer than the 3rd.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

My 2000wk came with the 2nd gen rudder although it looks like that it is not 76" long.

You must have the 2nd gen rudder to replace the 1st gen beaching rudder on the wb. Out of all the talk about 1st, 2nd & 3rd gen rudders this is the first report I remember of a 76” blade rudder being on the wing keel. I remember Arlyn talking about a blade for the wb. I did not know they ever put a 76” rudder on the wk that would make the rudder stick below the depth of the keel.

I wonder if that rudder is the original rudder for that boat? Or maybe you have a 1st gen rudder for the wk.

I don't know the exact measurement of the 2nd gen rudder that came with my boat and I am not around to measure it. I do remember the 3rd is about 2" shorter than the 2nd that came with my boat.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2003 : 21:41:38

Lets see if we can sort this out... the c/b was shipped with the 1st possibly up to the '97 model year. The blade was the standard rudder and the beaching was an upgrade option. W/k models of course started production early in '96 very shortly after my hull number 224 which I ordered in Dec '95. # 230 or close to it was a w/k. Some w/k were likely shipped with the 1st in both configurations of blade and beaching.

'97-'99 years were produced with the 2nd in a choice of blade or beaching upgrade option for both boat designs. These were all long rudders I thought and was surprised when Bryan reported that his 2nd was about the same length as the 3rd... If indeed, Bryan's 2nd was near the length of the 3rd... then it was an iteration of the 2nd that I wasn't aware of and perhaps a stop gap measure once they decided the long 2nd was a problem and prior to the release of the 3rd. My rudder discussion with Gerry Douglas took place in late Oct or early Nov of '99 when he informed me that the 3rd was in design and would be available within a few months.

The 3rd was released in the winter or early spring of 2000 in blade form only, the beaching option had been dropped at the time of Gerry's call to me.

I could certainly be corrected on any of this. I don't recall that the beaching rudder was identified with only the c/b though it may very well have not been recommended for salt water use because of the aluminum head..

If someone has/had a beaching rudder with a wing keel... sound off.

Also, those with a late '99 or early 2000.... which rudder did you get and how long?

.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2003 : 01:29:17

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The 3rd was released in the winter or early spring of 2000 in blade form only, the beaching option had been dropped at the time of Gerry's call to me.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

My boat was ordered in early January 2000. I was informed of the 3rd gen rudder being available to me at a reduced cost at the 2001 Denver boat show witch was also in January. I was one of the first people to get the 3rd gen (April 2001) rudder in my area. Given this info I think the 3rd gen rudder as released in the fall of 2000 on the new 2001 model then it was available as an upgrade early in 2001.

When I get back from my west coast trip I will measure my 2nd gen rudder to get an exact measurement on the one that came on the 2000wk.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2003 : 07:04:29

Bryan,

Interesting stuff... but I expect only for those who have followed the rudder issue. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

One thing seems obvious to me... a 2nd rudder simply cut off... I bet was quite lacking in control.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

DrDre
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2003 : 09:11:24

Arlyn, et al;
I've recently purchased my first boat! A '98 250 WK Hull #373 and it came with, according to the original owner, the long beaching rudder. The boat has been in brackish and salt water for the past 5 years and there is some corrosion on the aluminium head of the rudder. As with others the weatherhelm is crazy. I haven't put the 300lbs of sand forward yet, boat is on the hard for winter, but I will add that first thing next spring. I want to upgrade to the 3rd generation rudder but was told by, Kyle (?) at Catalina Yachts, that the cost would be $550 plus shipping. That sounds a bit crazy to me, is it? I will call there again this afternoon and try to figure out what the "upgrade" cost is.
Once I get the new rudder what do I need to do to prep it for installation? Do I remove the head from one to the other? Pintels? I read somewhere about resizing the gudgeons, is that true? Anyone wanna buy a beaching rudder when I'm upgraded?

Many thanks for the continued help and wealth of information I've gleened from these forums. It's great to have a home!

Looking forward,
Andre'

Edited by - on

BJ Wagner
1st Mate

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50 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2003 : 12:23:16

Our 1998 W/K #361 also came with beaching rudder. I have a copy of the orginal order confirmation from Catalina that was sent to the orginal owner and there are a number of upgrades listed, but no mention of the beaching rudder being one of them.

I have not sailed the boat since I moved the batteries forward under the v-berth last May (Too hot to sail during the summer in AZ) so it will be interesting to see how the move has effected the ability to balance the boat and the weather helm situation.

Is the general thought now to rake the 2nd generation forward slightly or lay out the money and get the 3rd?

Thanks,

Brad
Luna de Miel
C-250 Wing Keel #361
Lake Pleasant, AZ
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da29b3127cce96591202936f0000001010" border=0>

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2003 : 17:54:15

Confirmed then is that beaching rudders were shipped with w/ks.

I bought the 3rd last winter out of concern that cracks on the 2nd might be serious... it was slightly less than 300 which included pintles, steering arm receiver and shipping.

It is not difficult to solve the torque problems with the 2nd beaching. The result is a rudder with lots of control and reasonable balance compared to the 3rd which gives lots of balance and reasonable control. I prefer the former. My auto pilot does as well. I would be willing to trade a new 3rd... for a back up beaching 2nd. I'm not sure however that the spacing of the pintles would match that of the w/k.

Andre... the 2nd can be modified to reduce the torque by partially balancing the rudder. It requires dissasembly of the rudder head and some milling on the frame. I have done this for others in the past. The larger problem with the conversion is if the boat has seen salt water use... some of the stainless screws in the rudder head will have seized and will twist off requiring them drilled out. This requires a drill press and very sharp small bits. Not a big hassle... but tedious. Its not a problem to go back with all thru bolts except the top two that need flat heads to clear the tiller bars. Don't break them off if it can be helped though they can be repositioned below the tiller and use a thru bolt. The last one I did, I spent a couple of hours dealing with the broken screws, much longer than it takes to do the milling. The pintles on the beaching are different than those used on a blade rudder... so if going with a 3rd, new pintles will be needed.

Brad... the 2nd beaching rudder with mods performed on it combined with the wheel steering conversion to open cables provides and absolutely fantastic helm. To use the words that others have fed back to me... beyond my expectations.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Bryan Beamer
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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 01:00:36

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Confirmed then is that beaching rudders were shipped with w/ks.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Another chapter in the on going novel "As the Rudder Turns"

Question: Why would you need a beaching rudder on a wing keel?

The only thing I can think of is the rudder at 76” long would be deeper than the keel. Getting in skinny water the keel would clear then the rudder would kick up.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 07:47:21

I think the reason was singularly that... and compared to ripping the rudder loose... it was a significant one.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Bryan Beamer
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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 12:17:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I think the reason was singularly that... and compared to ripping the rudder loose... it was a significant one.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If that is the case what were they thinking by discontinuing it to go to a 76" blade?

I don't see how that would work for either model especially the wb.
Wouldn't the blade have to be installed after launch?
If so that would make installing the rubber with wheel steering a chore. I had to do this with my 2nd and 3rd gen rudder it wasn't easy and it is 17" shorter.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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408 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 15:38:25

I have a 1998 WB #370 with the long beaching rudder that was modified by the dealer when installing the Edson steering system. The mod was to "through bolt" the plate attached to the rudder head which ended the beaching aspect of the rudder. I believe I have seen a picture of other 250WB where the plate was welded to the rudder head thus enabling the beaching use of the rudder. I may have that done this winter.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 18:39:07

Bryan,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If that is the case what were they thinking by discontinuing it to go to a 76" blade?

I don't see how that would work for either model especially the wb.
Wouldn't the blade have to be installed after launch?
If so that would make installing the rubber with wheel steering a chore. I had to do this with my 2nd and 3rd gen rudder it wasn't easy and it is 17" shorter.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

When Gerry Douglas called and discussed the torque issue, he informed me that they had dropped the beaching rudder because of too many warranty issues caused by owners operating the rudder in a raked back configuration. He was referring mostly to wheel steering cables (the wheel option was temporarily suspended around that same time period until after Edson redesigned the cables to pull pull).

I reacted to his accusation of improper operation with a more likely cause to be his poor hold down design that after wearing slightly allowed the rudder to rake aft. That once abandoned for a better hold down system that held the rudder properly forward combined with a slightly better rudder balance, the nasty torque issues were gone.

Nonetheless, the 3rd was in the design process at the time... and their course was set.

Yes, a long blade on either c250 required shipping the rudder after launch and with as you point out... a greater effort for those with the wheel. The 3rd was seen as a cure for this, as well as greatly reducing the propensity for groundings.

That a beaching rudder was initially a design goal for the trailerable c250 meant it had virtues unrealized by a blade. I think they are super... with the one shortcoming being aluminum in a salt water environment.. That the design problem with the hold down led to its being dropped by Catalina is unfortunate.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 18:56:27

Jay,

Your dealer took the easy route... if not welded, it could have been bolted using flat head bolts counter sunk on the inside which of course would have required unbolting the plate from one side. You could still do this and it would be easier than welding. The holes are drilled and would only need counter sunk on the inside.

If doing this, it would restore the kick up ability... a huge benefit. While having it apart, mill the frame to rake the rudder forward some for balance. Install a cheek block and a cleat for using bungee for the hold down. Now, the rudder has both a pull down as well as the pull up line and it will auto reset back down after a grounding leaving you free to take care of other concerns like finding your way out of the shoal area instead of wrestling a rudder back down to get control of the boat.

You will like the results... and if wanting a super helm... do away with the Edson cables and go with open wire.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 15:49:46

Arlyn

thanks for the ideas. I will give them a try this winter while the boat is out on the trailer.

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

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sailgal
Captain

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400 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2003 : 14:19:25

DrDRE,
When all is set with your new rudder, let me know if you still want to sell your beach rudder. I've been looking for one. Thanks, you can email me at sailgal@comcast.net

Suzie, Tropical Sleigh
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da07b3127cce96a441e875780000001010" border=0>
WB #619 Sarasota FL.

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 14:13:33

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>When I get back from my west coast trip I will measure my 2nd gen rudder to get an exact measurement on the one that came on the 2000wk. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Okay here are the findings

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> My 2000wk came with the 2nd gen rudder although it looks like that it is not 76" long.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I measured the 2nd gen. rudder that came with my 2000wk I thought it was much shorter than 76”. I was wrong. It is actually 75” from tip to tip. Knowing this I took a measurement to see how much of the rudder was in the water. This rudder was not on the boat so I measured to where the bottom paint is a different color so this measurement could be off by an inch or so. The measurement I got was 41” of rudder in the water.

Now on the boat is the 3rd gen rudder and it measure from tip to tip 71”. I then measured from the lower tip to the water line and got a measurement of 38” of 3rd gen rudder in the water. I don’t have a tiller but it seems to me that the top of the 3rd gen rubber is a 1” or so lower that the 2nd.

So now knowing this that means the 2nd gen rudder is and 1” shorter than the depth of the wing keel and the 3rd is 5” shorter. This also tells us that the beaching rudder fully extended is 88 ½” long. (Arlyn reported earlier that the beaching rudder was 17 ½” longer than the 3rd gen blade.) Now if Catalina made a blade rudder as long as the beaching rudder it would be 13 ½” below the wing keel. Is this possible?

I called the dealer about this. They told me when they order a 3rd gen rudder upgrade they have to declare if it is for the wk or the wb. I asked what the difference was and he did not know saying he would ask one of the service techs and call me back. I have not received a call on this as of yet. If and when I do I will post their comments.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 15:40:51

Bryan,

Thanks for those details... this is getting more interesting and may end up with me in discussion with Catalina as well.

I need to correct some figures as well... but not by much. When I measured my 2nd generation total length... it was standing on the floor so this included the cleat on top of the rudder head. So, subtracting that yields a corrected length to 75.5 instead of 76. Not a big deal...but so that we are measuring the same things.

My 3rd, rechecking and taking careful measurements is 59 inches. So, my corrected figure for the difference is 16.5 inches.

This 16.5 inches correlates to the difference in depth below the lower pintle of each rudder exactly...being 52 for the 2nd and 35.5 for the 3rd.

The significant figure...is that my 3rd is 12 inches shorter than your 3rd. It's now clear why you didn't relate to my suggestion that the 3rd had inadequate control. Your 3rd is only around 4.5 inches less than your 2nd where mine is 16.5 inches. That is an even foot difference.

What I'm wondering now is... was Catalina trying to respond to center board owners who needed a foot less so they could pull out of the water without unshipping a blade rudder? If so. I'm asking the question... what in the world were they thinking of by compromising needed control to avoid the inconvenience of unshipping the rudder?

Further, if they had done the right thing to start with, by redesigning the beaching rudder hold down, they wouldn't be in for what I'm fixing to dish at them... They can have this 3rd generation rudder back...it is of no use to me. I bought it based on the lack of complaints that there would be control issues. Those lack of complaints are because wing keel owners don't suffer the problem because their's is a foot longer. Do I sound agitated?

Thanks again Bryan for shedding some light on this.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 16:14:26

Now this makes since!! If I had a water ballast with the wb's version of the 3rd gen rudder I would be totally PISSED OFF.<img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

I was reading Oscar's post about his latest trip to Chesapeake (assuming he has the 3rd gen rudder) and all the rounding up he was doing and I couldn't understand why. Grant it I sail in an inland lake we don't get the big waves but we have sailed in 30 plus winds and have never had those problems.

If the 75" blade worked okay on the wb then why wouldn't the 71" 3rd?

Wonder if a wk 3rd gen rudder will fit on a wb? If so I think they should give the owners a choice on the length they want.

I can’t wait to hear Catalina’s response to this.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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Oscar
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Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 16:57:07

OK, I'm jumping in here. It appears I have "the stubby". We're not going to fight over an inch here, but a quick one with the measuring tape says 56 overall, and judging by the yellowing at the waterline, about 28 of it in the water.........and if that's a foot less than Bryan's I can see why he's wondering why I'm doing pirouettes......

I have a call in to Catalina.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/Glitter2.JPG" border=0>

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 17:04:14

Bryan,

I think the answer is in the old phrase..PYA.

Thinking about it... what I believe is going on is this. Catalina wanted to drop the beaching rudder... so they needed to supply a rudder to the c/b boat that didn't rip the transom off the boat if it was hauled out without unshipping the rudder.... so, they simply made it a foot shorter than the wing version.

This at the cost of control... their $%^ was now protected at the cost of control that they likely deemed wasn't important on a c/b boat anyway because they don't sail aggressivily...Bull! You bet I'm mad...

I have my letter written... which expects Catalina to take this useless to me rudder back. I bought it based pn the lack of reports of any control issues. And, now its very clear why there were none. You have clarified what has happened.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Oscar
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Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 17:26:08

Interesting. My rudder has developed stress cracks on the leading edge which Frank Butler said he'd fix. But now I have more beef. You're just going to give them back your rudder, and get your money back. What do you think I should do?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/LKSidereefsmall.JPG" border=0>

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 17:36:02

IMHO if water depth and installing the rudder after the boat is floating is not a problem I would have Catalina give you the wk version of the 3rd gen rudder. If it will fit?

Or if enough people bi*#h maybe they will redesign the beaching rudder. If I'm not mistaken all the people bi*#hing about the control problems is why the 3rd gen rudder was introduced.

The more we talk about these two models of the C250. It is becoming very apparent just how different the 2 boats are.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 19:06:11

It was more than our #$%^&ing, Catalina had their own reasons for the 3rd. I in fact argued with Gerry Douglas to stay with the 2nd beaching rudder.

I think the 3rd generation rudder was envisioned to solve several issues.

The 2nd was unbalanced and suffered great torque issues...
The 2nd in a blade rudder was too long...
The beaching design had given them problems...
The 2nd was below the wing keel...
A single rudder design was probably easier to deal with than both a beaching and a blade...

There is something else that comes into play here that probably has bearing... water ballast took a very heavy initial critical hit... and sales of the c250 w/b had been disappointing after an initial rush. Dealers could hardly give one away for a while.

The wing saved the c250 design... Ironically, in the process the wing also vindicated the c/b because it was realized that water ballast wasn't the blame of the handling problems... it was the hull form that needed a high aspect ratio rudder which became evident when the wing suffered the same problems as the water ballast. Now, unable to blame the problem on water ballast... it became appreciated for what it was... a very good method of ballasting a 25 foot trailer sailor.

My point is this, the time at which the beaching rudder was dropped, sales of water ballast was very poor... I'm thinking that played into the decision to drop it. The wing keel customer was courted... because it was a sellable design. It was given more in the way of winches and lines aft to court the buyer who would likely be slipping or mooring the boat. Water ballast was a niche design for those like myself who would be trailer sailing and Mac was getting more than its share of that niche market. Catalina in my opinion, reacted and shifted course... and focused on the wing perhaps not realizing that the water ballast market would return.

It did however... and now its clear the value of the design when someone wants a boat that is capable of providing good cruising accommodations while yet very easy to get to a distant location and launch from just about any ramp.

Now... regarding the beaching rudder. It was very unfortunate that it was dropped. It provides the solution to the problems we're dealing with. I conveyed my feelings to Gerry Douglas about that four years ago... and am doing so again in my letter.

Has it surprised anyone that owners of other designs would come on this forum soliciting them? They have been under appreciated simply because of the poor hold down design that was a piece of cake to solve.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/06/2003 19:09:47

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/06/2003 19:24:27

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 19:15:53

One of the reasons I feel so chapped... is because I don't like others making decisions for me that they feel for whaterver reason is the best way to go. I know my needs greater than they do...

I appreciate insights... bring em on... tell me that I have the option of two rudders, one will require mounting after launch but will give better control. The other will save me from accidentally pulling the boat out and ripping the pintles out but will lack control for more aggresive sailing.

It should be my choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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