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Which generation rudder?

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 21:10:35

Down Boy......

I just got off the phone with Kent Nelson at Catalina...(extension 236 <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> He is going to refresh his memory as to how this all came about. According to him, the only difference between the current rudders for the WB vs WK is that the cutouts are different because of the different freeboard. According to him the overall size and shape are the same. I wonder if Bryan got a bastardized second when he ordered his third....
I asked if they had any beachers sitting around. He said he wouldn't sell it to me because of warrantee issues. I replied that I was willing to take it as is....just to get a sailable boat. He's looking into it.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/LKSidereefsmall.JPG" border=0>

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 21:58:03

A friend used to say, "I wouldn't bet an ant couldn't eat a bail of hay". Any thing is possible. Bryan got his third as a result he said of helping out with a boat show. It could have been a testing version.

The answer is as close as other wing keel owners posting the length of their rudders?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2003 : 22:40:12

Even if, Bryan's rudder turns out to be the odd rudder out... It begs the question of what constitutes adequate control. Here are a few comments from a rudder design site I looked at.

And, is Bryan grinning or frowning... do you reckon they will let him race with that rudder again if its only one of a kind? It came from Catalina... but is it stock or not...that is the question. Are prototypes considered stock... I doubt it. Yet it was a Catalina rudder for the C250. I can see a half dozen Philadelphia lawyers working over that issue for a few months.

"The shape, or planform of a rudder has evolved because of two factors. First we continuously learn more about what shapes are most efficient. Second, we continuously apply advances in materials and processes to the design of rudders. We know that a rudder of higher aspect ratio, that is, more depth relative to a given chord length, is more efficient. By that we mean it has a higher lift/drag ratio. Without getting too technical, higher L/D ratios mean that a rudder can be smaller, with the same turning power as an older rudder, or it can be the same size but generate more lift. High aspect rudders generate more force so they have to be able to withstand the increased loads on the blade itself, the stock, bearings and control system as well. The use of high strength composites makes high powered rudders possible."

I recall an Aussie that visited this site once... who sailed a C250 down under and reported that he broke a 2nd generation rudder in half by manhandling the tiller to fight the helm. I do not recall if it was a beaching or blade. This is the reason for the warranty reference. You have noted that both Bill Bosworth and I have reported crazing cracks under our beaching rudder control heads. I've no doubt that there is a great deal of force on them, hence why this page is on my web site in the section... Planned projects

http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/reenforce.html

There are two other possible solution other than a deeper rudder... one is Bill Bosworths approach to adding an end plate on the rudder... the other is untested theory... and was part of that discussion that you missed while working on your dodger... It involves adding spoilers to the hull quarters. Whoa you say... but they just might work... For that full thought see

http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/cause_of_weather_helm.html

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 08:58:54

I've taken the time to read your expose. Very enlightening. One question I have is regarding the effect of mast rake. Most of us have a few to four or so inches of mast rake, as measured at the bottom. Would straightening out the mast help? I know this affects CE and not the arm of the force of the hull "lift". Would we be able to bring CE closer to or forward of CLR and decrease the sum effect of yawing forces ? Bad news is that it would probably create no weatherhelm or even a leehelm under other condiditons...All depends where CE is in relation to CLR.

Also, the main reason we don't want to have the rudder sticking out below the keel is grounding. What if you remove the split ring from the bottom pintle so the rudder could pop out when it hits the ground? Make sure you tie a line to it so it stays with the boat. Retrieve it, use the motor to get to deeper water and put the rudder back in. Granted, not a fun scenario, but how goofy do you have to get to end up in water that's only two feet deep, and if you do, wouldn't you be taking it really slow? I would. You could get out and stand behind the boat and put the rudder back in. This acceptable risk would allow an extra foot of rudder, and the whole thing would be done with.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/LKSidereefsmall.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 10/07/2003 09:12:13

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 13:01:54

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> wonder if Bryan got a bastardized second when he ordered his third....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In January 2001 at the Denver boat show the 2001 C250wk was on display I did not measure the rudder but it looked the same size as the one I got in April of 2001. I'm sure I would have noticed 12" difference in length. It looks like all the other 3rd gen rudders.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>is Bryan grinning or frowning...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Bryan is grinning!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>and very happy my sail grounds allow me to have a wing keel.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>do you reckon they will let him race with that rudder again if its only one of a kind? It came from Catalina... but is it stock or not...that is the question. Are prototypes considered stock... I doubt it. Yet it was a Catalina rudder for the C250. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The rules say. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> (Rudders manufactured for C-250s by Catalina Yachts prior to the publication of these rules are considered to be approved.) In the case where the rudders are obviously different from those now being manufactured, proof of origin may be required<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Bryan got his third as a result he said of helping out with a boat show. It could have been a testing <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

April 2001 would be a little late for a test as per your comments.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My rudder discussion with Gerry Douglas took place in late Oct or early Nov of '99 when he informed me that the 3rd was in design and would be available within a few months.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Maybe the one you guys have is the 3rd gen. rudder modified. Maybe they shortened it since it was first released to make it work on both models.

Here is a picture of my long full length rudder.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce26b3127cce8ff938e778c60000003610" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 18:32:35

Bryan... I think your base is covered <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Anxiously awaiting reports from other wing keel owners giving their rudder lengths. I do have a Catalina drawing dated 12-30-99 that depicts the same rudder but with different pintle locations for the two models. Then a revision is added to the drawing on 2-8-00 noting it for use on the water ballast only. It also appears that the designation box of which model...is made with a different pen which suggest that it might have been filled in at the same time that the revision was posted.

This would tend to support a theory that on or about that time, the wing keel rudder was made different (longer?) and the drawing was no longer applicable to the wing keel. But... there could be other explanations as well.

Because this drawing indicates that the rudder will work on either model but with differing pintle locations...why would the same not be true for a revised longer model... unless the boss areas were not wide as on this one.
Smaller Pic
http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/3rd.jpg

Larger Pic
http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/3rd_full.JPG

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/08/2003 07:47:40

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/08/2003 07:57:56

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 19:33:53

Oscar,

Having the ability of a grounding to lift the rudder up and out of the pintles is a very common practice. Its complicated somewhat however on our design because 1st, the rudder has a lot of buoyancy and would float up and out of the pintles unless there was a shear pin... which is doable, but 2nd, the balanced portion doesn't allow the rudder to lift out unless it's swung fully to port.

Mast rake has a typical effect on the boat balance while the boat is on or near her lines... but when heeling significantly, the benefit of the more forward CE is not enough to eliminate rounding up. Early in production with the 1st generation rudder, an owner went to the trouble to shorten the forestay and lengthen the backstay in an attempt to cure the rounding up... it didn't do much. An google search on weather helm will reveal several owners of various designs that suffered bad weather helm during heeling that moved the forestay out on a sprit and reported only slight benefit from that effort.

Don't misunderstand, I think it's a very reasonable approach to gaining on the problem in any way possible and then perhaps the sum of those provide relief. Reducing yaw forces is certainly a big part of the plan... hence why raking the centerboard back and firming up the headstay and sailplan are important. However, from my experience, the single greatest and necessary part of the solution is to have enough control to counter the remaining yaw forces.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 07:38:03

The process to an understanding why Catalina would choose to provide a one foot longer rudder for the wing compared to the centerboard is perhaps one of having to get into their head. What I mean is, that if warranty issues come into play... direct answers are not always given. One other reason comes into mind besides the thinking that a one foot shorter rudder would be better for the C250 because of its ease and safety in pulling the boat (read less warranty issues).

If failures of the high aspect ratio 2nd generation rudder resulting from over stressing were confined to the centerboard boat... then it might have been felt that it was not a candidate to add another foot to the 3rd and incur more over stress results. I can see that the two models might be different in the amount of loading on the rudder. The centerboard is a heavier boat that sits deeper in the water and has more vertical keel surface.

The combined effects of those difference could be significant. Possibly greater yaw forces caused by a more pronounced asymmetrical footprint because of increased depth might exist. Added to greater yaw forces, is the rudder could experience greater grip because of the larger centerboard surface compared to the wing keel. The result could be that a high aspect ratio rudder on the centerboard could incur greater stress than those on the wing.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 11:14:08

I'm starting to think rudders need their own forum.....!

Al Maniccia
SeaWolf C250WK #698
Marina Del Rey, CA

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jmorrical
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 13:47:13

Arlyn,
I have a 1999 250 WK sail #401 that has a beaching rudder. Am I to understand that this is a second generation? Or what is it? Is this the best design for me? Some months ago I became convinced, after all the talk of rudder problems on the forum, that I needed to upgrade my rudder. I purchased the boat used in Austin, TX during August 2000 and expect the boat came to me as it was delivered to the first owner as it was like new. I'll measure the rudder ASAP and report to the forum. Last spring on Lake Conroe here 45 miles NNW of Houston I ran aground on a mud bank and the beaching rudder swept back doing it's job well.
This forum is great! Great information and detail about our boats. The three other 250 owners here at The Seven Coves Marina on Lake Conroe are missing out on the next best thing to being on the water--taking part of the discussion on the Catalina 25/250 National Association forum.

Jim Morrical
Trilogy III
250WK #401

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 16:21:31

Jim,

My boat is also a wing keel. I never had a beaching rudder so I cannot report how it performs to the 3rd gen rudder. My boat came with the 2nd gen blade rudder that is 75 inches long.

Everybody is now starting to see that the 2 models of C250's are totally different. What might be good for the wb probably is not good for the wk.

IMHO the 3rd is the best rudder for a properly balanced and tuned wing keel. As for grounding with the 3rd gen rudder it is 5" shorter than the keel so the keel should hit ground first. Unless you are going in reverse but then it wouldn't matter what rudder you had.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 17:49:07

Jim,

Almost certainly you have the 2nd. Two years ago, I recommended those with the 2nd beaching stick with it rather than going 3rd. It does need some mods to bring it up to good performance... but they are easy to make. I made this based on the statement by Gerry Douglas to me that the 3rd was going to be shorter and therefore have less control. I also suggested if having the 2nd blade... to upgrade to the 3rd because the 2nd ran deeper than the keel and was a risk to a grounding.

Since that time, the 2nd beaching rudders have been showing crazing cracks below the rudder head. Whether serious... is unknown. I plan to add carbon fiber to those areas as a winter project.

I agree with Bryan... if the 3rd for the WK is only 4.5 inches shorter than the 2nd and if thats above the keel... then the 3rd is the way to go.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 20:20:56

I have to reiterate, that during my last conversation with Kent Nelson at Catalina, he said that the only difference between the WB and WK rudder as it stands now is the steps to the balanced part, because of the difference in freeboard. Overall size and shape are identical, at 59 or so total inches. Again, that's what they're selling now.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/Glitter2.JPG" border=0>

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 20:29:13

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>if the 3rd for the WK is only 4.5 inches shorter than the 2nd and if thats above the keel... then the 3rd is the way to go. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The keel is most definitely deeper that the rudder.

My wing keel draft is 42"
My 3rd gen rudder draft is 38"

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 23:02:06

Oscar,

Part of my problem is... I hesitated to get the 3rd based on the possibility that it being shorter, sacrificed control. It was Bryan's reports that the 3rd upgrade didn't incur such sacrifice that led me to feel ok about upgrading. I've labored very hard and long to turn horrendous handling into fantastic handling. This included

* changing from the 1st to the 2nd (paid shipping charges)
* modifying the 2nd control head to provide some amount of balance as the 2nd wasn't balanced even though the 1st had been. (a regression)
* modifying the rudder hold down system that was a poor piece of design and should have been the blame for the beaching problems rather than to accuse owners of improper operation
* conversion to my own designed open wire steering system to eliminate the play, drag and poor steering ratio

Purchasing the 3rd (at cost but still nearly $300) upgrade brought a triple regression because it both sacrificed my greatly endeared beaching rudder as well as losing enough control to render my autopilot useless and having the boat handling back to the days of the 1st generation roundups.

Jim,

According to Oscar's conversation with Catalina, you don't want the 3rd unless it can be the length of Bryan's... the short 3rd does not have adequate control. And, based on this...

To prospective buyers,

My recommendation is to assess their sailing venues... if they will be aggressive, purchase minus the rudder... and contract that built by someone who will build a proper rudder for the boat. According to the web page I looked at...they run about 20-30 boat units for a high aspect ratio with carbon reinforcing.

As both Bryan and I have attested... the C250 with adequate rudder control is a pleasure to sail and provides very good handling. With inadequate rudder control, it is not a good handling boat... this was the struggle which it was labeled when first going into production and had overcome. Why Catalina regressed must relate to warranty issues.... unfortunate.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/08/2003 23:09:32

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 23:30:58

I think it's time to start picketing the Catalina factory....."We want control" "Take your 3rd and shove it"......

Oscar
(In the studio, no pics)

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 23:39:29

It is a little late to order without the rudder since Penny II will be completed on 10/10 and ship 10/14. I don't think you can order one without the rudder anyway. Heck it took me 5 phone calls just to get them to sell me a second 12 gal. water tank and I had to pay 1 BU for it. I think the only reason they did was I told them I was going to charge them interest on the money they had collected while trying to provide me a damage boat.

Frog and The General
<img src="http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/3f514bcf_339f/bc/boats/__tn_Pretty+Penny.jpg?bc2LWU_AhL8DufLw" border=0>
79 Wing #1166
Pretty Penny

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 23:55:43

What research have you guys done to identify existing rudders that will work for you? How about J24, melges 24, J27 These boats have a very active supply industry with reasonably priced parts. Just off the top of my head I assume a J24 rudder would fix you guys up. This is a quote from the Quantum site...
Most people argue that the rudder should be at minimum depth (860mm) because the rudder is already large enough, as well as to reduce wetted surface area. Mount the first gudgeon so that the rudder is at minimum depth. (I would like to give specific measurements on this, but the pintal placement varies greatly from boat to boat. Just make sure the bottom of the rudder is no less than but right around 860mm from the bottom of the transom
...that is 34". According to Arlyn your 3rds ar only 58.5", I would guess the J rudder must be at least 68".

ps I promise an S2 7.9 rudder is deep enough and it is a kick up!

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/08/2003 23:56:32

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/08/2003 23:59:35

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 06:49:15

Frank,

Good ideas. Interestingly, other designs have been coming onto this site attempting to purchase the 2nd generation rudders that we discard.

The one problem that purchasing an out of house rudder brings (other than additional cost and effort) is that it would not qualify for racing under our present rules.

I am almost mystified by all this... I have full confidence that Bryan has related accurately the details of his rudder and equally full confidence that Oscar has reflected accurately the current status.

What this in a sense means is that the current rudder is not the 3rd... but rather the 4th generation and still they haven't gotten it right. However, I'm not suggesting it be called the fourth...perhaps Bryan's should be called the 3.1 and the current iteration 3.2 or some such.

Just as I think I have my letter to Catalina ready to dispatch... a new twist unfolds and I rewrite and wait to ensure my perspective is full and accurate. I don't wish to get into a writing campaign that requires several clarifications... that would take years.

It would still be very helpful if more owners of the 3rd generation would report their length... (rudder I mean, not looking for another addition to the blooper page )<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I'd sure like to know why Catalina regressed from the 3.1 they shipped to Bryan? Was it incuring pintle stress even worse than what is cracking the 3.2 ? Is that the reason?

What is the latest word about those stress cracks? Has Catalina provided any warranty repair for those cracks... or dismissed them as cosmetic?

Is the end plate the solution? Does it compromise the pintle loading? Does it increase the lift enough?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 10/09/2003 07:06:50

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 07:27:44

Frog,

The extra water tank is a good idea. I have 18 gallons and while cruising, it comes close to matching the 13 gal holding tank which gives about 5-6 days cruising between pumpout and water stops. It is a more reasonable approach than adding two sandbags. 24 gallons will be good.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 09:42:50

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Was it incuring pintle stress even worse than what is cracking the 3.2 ? Is that the reason? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I bet you're right on the money there.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What is the latest word about those stress cracks? Has Catalina provided any warranty repair for those cracks... or dismissed them as cosmetic?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No, I've been told to ship/bring it in and they'll fix it. However, I suspect that they would be treating the symptom rather than the disease. I haven't heard back from Kent Nelson yet. I'll rattle his cage later today.

One thought, if we put a vertical sleeve on the end plate, and then glass some bushings into the bottom of the rudder, the plate can be installed with pins/cotterpins for cruising, and then removed for racing.

The bottom line is that we have a rudder that is inadequate, and even at that load twists (cracks), so increasing the load, which is wat increased yaw forces would do, would bring the thing even closer to failure.

It needs redesign, and execution with better engineering. Bigger and stronger. Period.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/Glitter2.JPG" border=0>

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 11:43:47

All right here is the scoop.

I just got off the phone with the Catalina Dealership here in Colorado. They have a new 2004 C250wk with wheel steering on their lot and I asked them to measure the rudder it is indeed 71" long. They also had a 2001 c250wk with wheel steering on the lot and its rudder is also 71" long. As we discussed earlier my rudder that I got in April of 2001 is also 71".

To clarify the matter further they had in stock a 3rd gen rudder that is for a water ballast C250 and it is indeed 59" long.

Given this info came from a Catalina dealer that I totally trust I would say there are definitely different rudders for the 2 models of the C250. I asked the question why 2 different rudders? They had no word from Catalina as to why other than they must specify if the rudder is for a wk or wb when they order an upgrade and I don't think they even knew there was a different until my call today. Their thought was as we have discussed the wb with its keel up would draft less than the 71" rudder.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - bryan beamer on 10/09/2003 11:47:15

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 18:26:52

Thanks Bryan... that was the needed info.

Just talked to Kent... we covered some good ground but basically gave same song and dance that Oscar got...until asked why a 2004 WK is fitted with a longer rudder... then it was, "Give me your number, I'll have to get back with you."

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 19:39:12

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Just talked to Kent... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Me too. Keep harassing him untill he gives us what we want...<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
I'm trying to get him to send me a beach rudder. With Arlyn's mods that seems to be the solution. Only way he'll do it is if I waive warrantee.....But he's still looking for the parts. Meanwhile I've done some digging under the heading: "How to build a rudder" I've got some good ideas. But as stated before, that would not be usable in races, which I don't do however....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/Glitter2.JPG" border=0>

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 22:12:02

I know this is not any of my business, but getting back to my suggestion about using rudders from other designs... I think I found the perfect rudder
<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/Voyager%2026.JPG" border=0>
Sorry couldn't resist. Anyway I went to the club today to find some rudders for you guys. If this association has the authority to change class rules then why not declare a 3 year (5 year?) moratorium on rudder demensions. Let people experiment and you will all finally agree on the solution. I posted the rudders I took pictures of at this address http://homepage.mac.com/fhopper/PhotoAlbum22.html. What I got from these pictures is
If a J-24 will work, they are cheap and available
S2s meter series have kick-up rudders with heads that are made from flat sheets of aluminum, easy to fabricate. You could use your rudders with their head design.
ODays have great rudders that would only need a little work at the notch.
Anyway, I hope you guys get this worked out, it must be very frustrating to have such nice boats with this rudder thing causing this much grief.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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