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Which generation rudder?

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Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 23:51:04

I "splashed" my 2004 WK, Hull #727 today and measured the rudder, as I have been reading this thread with great interest...I would have measured the rudder sooner but the boat was getting bottom paint and aft berth portlights (Great addition) and due to some "shop" equipment problems I pick up the boat today...the rudder measures 71 inches....the keel is lower than the rudder and would "ground" first if that, and let's hope not, ever happened....only had time to slpash the boat and get it to the marina and into a slip before dark, so as to any handling issues I experience I will pass those along later...but being a novice I'm not sure I can be helpful in that area compared to the experience that is already sailing...Oscar, I haven't forgotten your request for photos of the inboard diesel and will do that sometime this coming weekend and get them posted for you...Dan #727.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 07:16:36

Dan, Congrats on the new boat... and thanks for the report. With that rudder, you should not experience any of the problems with control that we've been discussing.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 08:52:36

I've nearly completed my letter to Catalina. Yet, is to take a picture of the crazing cracks on the 2nd beaching rudder below the rudder head and a picture of the carbon fiber laminate that I'm thinking of using. I've asked their assessment of this as well as of course sharing my concerns about the shortcomings of the 3rd.

Because of the twist the last few days, this letter has seen more iterations than C250 rudders. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Again, Bryan's assistance is what made sorting this out possible ... Thanks again. It always helps perspective to have understanding... and now knowing there is a 3rd long and short, we can communicate with more meaning and understanding. It is unfortunate that Catalina desired for some reason to keep us in the dark about that. My key question in the letter is, why did Catalina see the need for a longer rudder only on the stiffer of the two models? I'm perplexed.

Catalina has a reputation for doing what they can to provide remedies to owner problems... no doubt they will do the same again.

Also, great thanks to Frank who sensing another sailors need has offered possible solutions. In the doing... it says he cares and that continues to reenforce the bond between the original C25 and its successor C250.

If any one directly concerned wants a copy of that letter, I'd be happy to share.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 11:25:21

Arlyn,

I would like a copy of your letter.

Thanks for offering.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 16:02:30

Bryan... sent your direction.

Kent called back today and provided me with address... He promised to respond after discussing with Gerry next week.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2003 : 20:21:25

Arlyn, I'd like a copy too.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> My key question in the letter is, why did Catalina see the need for a longer rudder only on the stiffer of the two models?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think the WK has the rudder they feel it needs, and that the WB has the same rudder, with the bottom cutoff.....The WB needs a properly designed beaching rudder. (4th gen....?)

On that note, I plan on building a beaching rudder if Catalina does not do the right thing. The nice thing about building a beaching rudder is that you only have to build the top half once, and can endlessly change the part that's in the water with relatively little effort, untill you arrive at a shape that works. Might even go with something metal.

Even though I am primarily a cruiser I support the idea of putting a temporary clause in the class rules that allows modified/homebuilt rudders on the WB, untill we arrive at something that works, and make it an oficially allowable dimension. Is this feasible? (Question to the race powers that be....)

BTW, In my last conversation with Kent I believe I read between his lines that he has been following the discussions on this forum. (Hi Kent <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>).....Hopefully he'll stop saying that the rudder on the WB and the WK are the same....there is ample irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

Another interesting tidbit. I was talking to someone who claimed to have some knowledge of boat design. When I described our handling problem he explained that hull forms (Arlyn correctly explains how hull shape contributes to weather helm) are intentionally designed to do so. Protects those trying to roll the boat against themselves....

Oscar, In Raleigh Durham making BU's...

Edited by - oscar on 10/10/2003 20:33:39

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 18:39:47

Oscar,

Your right, the hull form of the C250, the Mac 25-26, the Santana 2023A and perhaps others are a departure from traditional hull forms. The prime reason, to enable internal ballast. The ballast being closer to the CG, needs an artificially longer righting arm and gets that from hull form. Interestingly, all the designers of these boats were caught unaware of the rudder requirements to hold them from the resulting weather helm induced by heeling.

I'm certainly an advocate a beaching rudder on the C250 centerboard.

One issue that has not been raised in this thread, surfaced in the thread that Suzie started on the leading edge crack. That is, what if any did the new construction process of the 3rd play in the decision not to continue a beaching rudder?

I've cut out several foam wing cores for model airplanes using a hot nichrome wire on a home made bow like device with leads to a battery. In that process, we used two numbered templates glued to the ends of the foam block and two people held the bow and moved it in unison with one person calling the numbers and the other following. The root and tip were often the same but I have cut tapered wings as well. I still have my bow though I'm not sure its long enough for a rudder. If you think you'd like to try one of those...let me know and I can give you details. One method of covering them after they are cut is to use spray adhesive and roll on a thin plywood skin with the leading and trailing edges getting a piece of firm balsa and shaped. This of course would be glassed for a rudder. To add the necessary strength, some carbon fiber strips are glued to the surfaces and sometimes spars are added either to rabbits at the thickest point of the chord of each surface or an aluminum spar is fed down through the middle. Making rudders in this way seems reasonable for a single or small production.

If in the case you cannot find a beaching rudder complete...maybe someone has just the control head available... that would be a great starting point.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2003 : 12:43:08

Called Kent today....told him I'd keep calling untill....

He has seen the light and acknowledges that the WB rudder is a foot or so shorter than the WK rudder.

Gerry is out sailing a 250 (R&D or having fun?) Kent will get back to me after he talks to Gerry....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/Glitter2.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2003 : 13:05:04

I measured Penny II's rudder today and believe it or not, mine is the same as Danny's 2004. It is 71" long of which 38" is in the water. I also put my laser level on it and the keel and rudder are the exact same distance below the boat so I guess they both hit bottom at the same time.

Forgot to mention it is of the two notch variety.

Frog and The General
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce35b3127cce804c28b809cc0000001010" border=0>
04 Wing #743
Pretty Penny II

Edited by - frog0911 on 10/16/2003 13:10:02

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2003 : 13:13:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I also put my laser level on it and the keel and rudder are the exact same distance below the boat <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The keel is most definitely deeper that the rudder.

My wing keel draft is 42"
My 3rd gen rudder draft is 38"
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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416 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2003 : 23:02:11

I am not sure why I was not following the discussion on this topic, but I havn't. Having said that I do not have the time to read the three pages (but I will) right now but I did quickly scan them.

Suzie posted the picture in another discussion Re: the cracks on the rudders leading edge above the waterline. At that time our 250 was still in the HOH and I had not checked the rudder prior to responding. I have since pulled out for the winter and checked the rudder and the cracks have turned into whole portions of gelcoat missing ( say 1/4" x 1/4").

I took the rudder into my dealer (Strictly Sail) for them to see, since I had shown them the problem last year while it was still under warantee. I just got off the phone with them and they agree that at this point it does need some repair. They thought that fiberglass reinforcing is needed. I ask them to contact Catalina about this matter and they said they would.

I think the Idea of a fourth rudder is needed since there is some stress going on in this location. I have never sailed with any of the other rudders so I really do not know if the boat can sail better. I do know that if the rudder was deeper I would want the kick up option.

On the hard
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 10/26/2003 14:33:55

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 08:48:45

It's been almost 2 weeks. What is the latest from Catalina? Did they blow it off?

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d936b3127cce801aaad080930000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 10:00:36

Nothing to report here... I will remind them if hearing nothing.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

jmorrical
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 22:19:56

Today I measured the rudder on Trilogy III, my 1999 hull/sail #401 250 WK with the second generation (I hope that's right) beaching rudder. It measured 75" LOA with approximately 42-43" draft. Seems to fit the profile you all have been building. Can I conclude that my wing keel and rudder draft are both at about 42'.

Jim Morrical
Trilogy III
250WK #401

Edited by - on

DougA
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 15:54:09

I had chance to get everything out and take a picture.

Edited by - DougA on 10/23/2003 16:06:28

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 20:30:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DougA
 I had chance to get everything out and take a picture.

I bought a used 96 250wb #220. It had the v2 kick-up rudder. Down below I found v1 and earlier this year I purchased v3 non kick-up. They are a lined up from left to right. I also took some measurements.

v---Over all---top of lower------Width
---------------Grudgen to bottom
1---51 ½-------41----------------12
2---65 ½-------52----------------11 ½
3---59----------36----------------17

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This seems to be another permissions issue, I see a missing picture and when I try to go to the actual web site it will not let me in.

Edited by - on

DougA
1st Mate

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73 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 21:21:43

the picture is stored on Shutterfly and this system has worked in the past. If anyone has an idea how to fix it or wants a copy, let me know.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2003 : 07:28:23

Doug.... you list 65.5 for the length of the 2nd... is this a typo? I'm thinking it should be 75.5

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DougA
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/24/2003 : 14:33:54

Just went out in the garage and remeasured and it is 65.5.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2003 : 15:22:20

Ahhh... it just hit me that you may be measuring the rudder itself rather than the length of the rudder and head combined?

Edited by - on

DougA
1st Mate

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73 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2003 : 18:17:06

correct

Edited by - on

arlingva
Navigator

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116 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2003 : 21:40:18

Just wanted to get my two cents in. Haven't been on the site in about two months. I have the 3rd generation for WK (I assume 71", but I haven't measured.) Never had any control issues and I am an experinced sailor, so I had doubts about all the rounding up issues I was hearing. The 2 different 3rd generation rudders explains it all.

Now my problem. My 3rd generation (long version) is showing cracks along the leading edge between the pintels. The cracks are larger than spider cracks, but it isn't what I would call seperating. Anybody have any idea if Catalina will fix this for me. Boat is about 16 months old now.

Thoughts? Disregard found issue being addressed in another thread.

Thanks, Bill

Edited by - arlingva on 11/06/2003 22:00:10

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 11:56:27

See Sailgals post "Stress cracks" and tell us if they are the same as yours, then take a number and get in line.......

Call Kent Nelson at Catalina Yachts....818-884-7700

Don't take no for an answer. These rudders are substandard in every way. We're talking about something that was developed 3000 years ago.....others do it right, why not Catalina?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

idaspyder
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2004 : 21:55:09

Hello All,
I'd like to weigh in on the rudder issue by offering to build our high performance balanced rudder in either beaching or fixed blade models. Our rudders carry our lifetime guarantee against failure. We build world-class performance rudders and laminated tillers, all in-house. We would like to begin offering performance balanced blades for the C25/250. Please contact me if you have interest in developing solid solution to the rudder issues the Catalina 25/250 owners have been experiencing.
Thanks,
-Joel
Joel Santarone
General Manager
IdaSailor Marine
www.idasailor.com
866-400-2204 toll free

See Sailgals post "Stress cracks" and tell us if they are the same as yours, then take a number and get in line.......

Call Kent Nelson at Catalina Yachts....818-884-7700

Don't take no for an answer. These rudders are substandard in every way. We're talking about something that was developed 3000 years ago.....others do it right, why not Catalina?

Oscar

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2004 : 23:34:03

Thanks Joel for your notice of the rudder problem. I'm not sure that a direct exchange should happen here on this forum, but we can take it to email and I and anyone else that exchanges with you will I'm sure report the options to the group.

One of our constraints is class integrity for those who might race.

Edited by - on

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