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Standing rigging question about sizes

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/14/2003 : 15:22:27

Ok Leon, per your advice I bought the book and the Sta-lok tape (everyone please forgive this long paste from an old thread but this stuff from Leon is solid gold)
Leon Sisson
Posted - 09/16/2003 : 02:09:41
Frank and Martha,
Re: "... realize I am way over my head ... lets have some specifics." A lot depends on how far in over your head, it's hard to know what level of expertise to write to on the 'Net.
Re: "I want the bullet proof rigging that you guys made up.." "You guys" being who? I doubt that any two of us have the same "bullet proof rigging".
Re: "... a parts list and a source so I can make my own rigging?"

I'll try. First, sources:
Brion Toss Yacht Riggers had the best wire and price on Sta-Locks. West Marine and Defender turned out to have the best price on the Hayn turnbuckles. I forget who I ordered the upper forestay toggle from. I probably also got some of the stuff from Banana River Marine.

Parts & Materials:

(1 copy) "Rigger's Apprentice", book by Brion Toss.

(1 copy) "Surveying Rigging", video by Brion Toss.

(1 copy) "Sta-Lock Terminations", video by Brion Toss.

3/16" 1x19 316 alloy stainless steel rigging wire - just add up the lengths of the masthead rigging in the owner's manual.

5/32" 1x19 316 alloy stainless steel rigging wire - just add up the lengths of the lower shrouds in the owner's manual.

(4) 5/16" bronze open body toggle-jaw/toggle-jaw turnbuckles.

(4) 3/8" bronze open body toggle-jaw/toggle-jaw turnbuckles.

(1) 3/8" stainless steel eye/jaw toggle (headstay).

(8) Sta-Lock 5/32"x5/16" eye terminals.

(8) Sta-Lock 3/16"x3/8" eye terminals.

(2doz) stainless steel split rings.

(3doz) stainless steel cotter pins.

(1 small) blue Lock-Tite.

(1 tube) polysulfide sealant.

Tools:

pencils.

paper.

masking tape.

fine point felt tip pen.

(50') steel measuring tape.

hacksaw w/sharp fine blade.

(1') 2x4 scrap.

(2) adjustable wrenches.

needle nosed pliers.

Proceedures:

Study the book.

Study the tapes.

Measure the old rigging very carefully.

Cut the new rigging very carefully.

Assemble the new rigging.

Install the new rigging.

I think it took me two or three evenings after work to make up the new rigging, not counting reading the book and watching videos.

A brief note on measuring: Keep in mind that you want to end up with the correct over all lengths eye to eye with each turnbuckle about 2/3 extended. You'll need to do some basic arithmetic to determine what length to cut the new wire so everything comes out right. My boat matched the factory spec's exactly. Yours may not.

I also switched from single offset backstay to adjustable split backstay. Upgraded the bow fitting, lower chainplates, and spreader bases. Added heady wall alluminum compression sleeves at all spreader thru-bolts. Removed, inspected, and rebedded the upper chainplates, with full diameter hex bolts, large fender washers, and locknuts in place of the original machine screws through the main bulkhead. Switched from external halyards to internal lead aft. Rewired the mast, including new lights, while I had it down on sawhorses. Replaced VHF antenna, added windvane. Installed stainless steel safety wire bird deflectors on all potential perches. Added stainless steel masthead topping lift wire parallel to backstay.

I'm not trying to make work for you here. I'm just mentioning some additional things you might want to look into while the mast is down. A lot depends on your definition of "bullet-proof rigging".

-- Leon Sisson
.. if I decide to bail on this project and go with a lesser route I need to know something. You specifically identified different thread sizes for the turnbukles
(4) 5/16" bronze open body toggle-jaw/toggle-jaw turnbuckles.

(4) 3/8" bronze open body toggle-jaw/toggle-jaw turnbuckles.

(1) 3/8" stainless steel eye/jaw toggle (headstay).

Why? Catalina Direct says that inspite of the fact that we have smaller 1x19 wire on the lowers the replacement turnbuckles for all of our rigging is the same size. 'Sup wit dat? Are you just doing it right and Catalina wanted to standardize for simplicity or... God forbid, is CD wrong?
Anyone can answer this if they know the answer, I'm just confused.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2003 : 21:53:13

Hi Frank and Martha,

Re: "... per your advice I bought the book and the Sta-lok tape ..."

Congratulations! It's always so flattering when someone actually pays attention to some of my advice.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> It eases the suspicion that sometimes I'm typing this stuff just for my own entertainment.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

As for sizes. In the chapter of "Riggers Apprentice" titled "Standing Rigging Design and Materials", Brion Toss discusses calulating rigging loads and size selection. I followed his procedures carefully, even to the point of performing the Righting Moment test. After I stepped my way through the formulas, the results didn't look right. I wrote to the author, showed him my math, and he pointed out some small error that had crept in and cascaded down through the results. After I fixed that, the original equipment wire sizes calulated out to be right at the bottom of the offshore safety factor range. From there, I calculated the turnbuckle sizes and clevis pin diameters based on the loads and safety factors from the Toss book, and with additional input from "Understanding Rigs and Rigging" by Richard Henderson. The two authors address the same issues, but from two different approaches. Reading both gave me high confidence in my methods and results.

Re: "Catalina Direct says that inspite of the fact that we have smaller 1x19 wire on the lowers the replacement turnbuckles for all of our rigging is the same size. 'Sup wit dat? Are you just doing it right and Catalina wanted to standardize for simplicity or... God forbid, is CD wrong?"

"Wanted to standardize for simplicity" has a certain ring of plausibility to it, doesn't it? Catalina Direct wrong? That depends some on whether they said to go with the larger or the smaller turnbuckle size. And whether the turnbuckles they want to sell you will fit the rest of your rigging right. If they're saying it's OK to put a 5/16" clevis pin in a 3/8" hole, Brion Toss might dissagree. In partial defense of Catalina Direct, I'll point out that Brion Toss' "Standing Rigging Design and Materials" chapter, under the heading "Selecting Wire", at the end of the fourth paragraph, he says, "It's prudent to make the lowers as heavy as the uppers." And a couple of paragraphs further on, he says, "Again, it would be better to use stronger wire than noted for the lowers." But that's about wire, not turnbuckles, which need to fit the existing chainplates, etc.

How'd you like the Sta-Lok video? It really is almost as easy as he makes it look.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> Just follow the directions exactly.

Oh, and one other thought. In my previous post, I said to measure the old and new wire lengths carefully. A bit of preload helps assure that the wire is straight when you measure it. For the old rigging, I set each piece up taught between two dock pilings using an old boom vang to generate tension. For the new wire, I installed a Sta-Lok on each end of the whole raw length, and used those to pull it taught for measuring. As you can figure out, each time I cut a stay to length, I installed another new Sta-Lok on the freshly cut end of the remaining bulk wire. When I was down to the last two cuts, I made both measurements and cuts at once (symetrical port & stbd. shrouds).

Good luck, and enjoy the project.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2003 : 08:58:59

Leon, please be assured you ARE NOT WRITING MERELY FOR YOUR OWN ENTERTAINMENT !!!! Whenever a topic is discussed I --for one-- pay very particular attention to what you suggest, using it as a standard to go by. And this is after fifty years of pulling maintenance on various small boats. PLEASE keep it up, best, ron srsk Orion

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2003 : 20:39:13

Hey Leon,
Your posts are entertaining to us as well. Keep up the good work.

So now I have a new question. How much can one save making your own rigging vs. getting some made by Catalina Direct? I'm wondering as that will be one of my winter projects. I rerigged my C22 with the CD rigging and really liked the service and convenience. Is the original C25 rigging from the factory two different sizes too? That's what is on my 89 model. When I bought my boat it was in a slip about 100 yards from an interstate, so I would assume all of the acids from the car and diesel exhausts have corroded my lower swaged fittings. What do you think?

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.