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conversion from roller to hanked on genoa

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/22/2003 : 21:30:54

OK, I have not been able to find a used roller furling headsail, and I have 3 hank on sails in excellent condition (110, 135, and 155). Whether I repair the furling sail, buy a new one, or locate a used one I will be sailing the hanked on sails for a while.

The jib sheet leads for the roller is one single long piece of rope that is attached in a half hitch in the genoa cringle. For the hank on sails I need to cut this and either tie bowlines to the sail before hoisting or are there clips (something like carabiners) you can recommend. I my sheets are 1/2" or larger.

Do you use a canvas headsail bag? I'd like to drop the sail, leave it hanked on, and stuff it into a bag. However, the West Marine price for the bag is $134 (that would go a LONG way towards buying the new sail). So I don't want to buy this bag unless it is a real time saver. I do have sail bags for stowing all 3 genoas below decks.

How do you raise, lower and stow the genoa single-handed?

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 21:53:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> either tie bowlines to the sail before hoisting or are there clips<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I vote for bowlines.....(heavy) clips flopping around in a breeze are deadly weapons.....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>How do you raise, lower and stow the genoa single-handed?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

With every arm and leg you have...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....I recommend to put up some "netting" even if it is just big X's with thin line between the lifelines and the deck along the forward part of the rail. Keeping the thing on board untill you can tie it up it helps. Also, having the halyard led to the cockpit is a plus when singlehandling. Finally, a "downhaul" line makes dousing easier. (line that is tied to the head of the sail and goes up with it, also led aft to the cockpit...when it's time to douse, line the jib up over the side deck, (depowered of course) leggo the halyard, pull and hold 'er down with the downhaul, tighten up the sheet once she's down, and the netting will keep 'er on board for ya'.

As far as storing on deck, back in my hankin' days I occasionally left the jib hanked on, stuffed it in the sailbag and then closed the bag and tied it up around the headstay with just the hanks sticking out. Don't think this is a setup you want to expose to UV for extended periods of time. Of course Sunbrella is about $13.00 a yard, 48" wide. Can be sewed on a home type machine. Got one? Got a relative who has one?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/Glitter2.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 21:58:16

I developed a folding routine years ago that is working for me again. While the sail is hanked on you first pull the cleww all the way back along the deck with sails longer than a working jib you pull the clew between the mast and the shrouds. The actual foot will probably flop under the crease formed from the clew to the tack. you next grab the sail a little further up from the clew and pull it back. This forms a fold that aligns with the lowest hank. You do this until the sail is nicely flaked, it goes really quickly, I promise. Then you are ready to unhank the sail and let the folds fall to the deck. You then fold it from there, flop the stack back once or twice so you are working a couple feet back from the bow and then just keep folding by pulling the sail forward as you fold. Leave it sitting infront of the hatch. Go below where you left the bag on the vee berth when you set the sail out to hank on and pull the nicely folded sail down the hatch, lay it on the berth and slide it in the bag. I do it every time I sail.
As for the sheets, I bought a very nice large witchert swivel snap shackel that I have my sheet tied to. I used a half hitch then 2 inches further back I tied a knot. It gives me a spot to put the whisker where it will not slide. I leeve my sheets shackled to my bow tack shackle when they are not on a sail. to store them I run them along the outside of the lifelines and cleat them back in the cockpit with the sheet cleats. They are always there and never in the way.
I use a down haul on my head sail, it is a braided line that is smaller than 1/4" and I just run it through my stanchion bases, no blocks or anything, except for the one shackle block on the bow stem fitting that the down haul runs through. I have found that clipping it to the halyard shackle works best.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/22/2003 22:06:50

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 22:31:32

I do everything Oscar and Frank recommend EXCEPT the snap shackle. I'm definitely with Oscar on the bowlines. Also, back the jib/genoa first, quickly loose the halyard, haul like &*^% on the dousing line, and the foresail will drop to the deck nearly perfectly flaked and stretched; ready to fold.

You just may not ever go back to the furler. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

However, it's not too expensive to have the 155% cut and taped by a loft to become your new 135% furling sail.

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - Antares on 10/22/2003 22:32:43

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 22:38:57

lets see, click my sheets are on the clew and cannot twist up, click my sheets are stowed and secured. Try one and you'll never go back!

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/22/2003 22:41:11

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 22:45:33

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Try one and you'll never go back!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That wouldn't be because it conked me in the temple, would it? <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 22:56:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Try one and you'll never go back!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That wouldn't be because it conked me in the temple, would it? <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Remember, on your feet or on your knees, we are all going to die.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
If you look at JB's email address I don't think he is intemidated by a shackle! Forgive me for speaking for you JB, if I were you I would try a shackle and if what you see worries you... sell it to me cheap!

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 23:05:54

I got rid of my old roller furler, converted my sails to hanks and have not regreted it once.

Half the fun of sailing is climbing up on the bow to set the sails.

Oh yea, bowlines or bust. Best knot in the world.

Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 23:21:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I got rid of my old roller furler, converted my sails to hanks and have not regreted it once.

Half the fun of sailing is climbing up on the bow to set the sails.

Oh yea, bowlines or bust. Best knot in the world.

Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If I could tie a bowline I might feel different than I do. Tying knots is a lot like spelling, I don't even know what its supposed to look like muich less whether its right or knot. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 00:32:09

prognosis:

All sails were laid in the driveway this evening. The 135% is like new and has its own sheets. The material is crisp, shiny, and has big semi transparent panels with lots of fibers running through. Looks like packing tape. It is a North. The material is fairly light (but nothing like my 0.5 oz spinnaker). It seems very tough. I think excellent condition.

The 110% is older and heavier and more like the material in my North main. It is an Oddesy. It seems indestructible. It has it's own sheets.

The 155% North is the same material as the 135, but it is older and has two patches - one along the foot and one along the leech. It did not have sheets but I tied the ones from the roller (using bowlines - I'm not afraid of shackles but I am just in the IT department). Seems in good condition and the patches are holding OK.

The roller genoa is different material. It seems to be more like nylon. It is very soft, like a bedsheet. The material seems fairly tough - except along the seam with the UV protection attached. I just pushed this with my finger up near the head and it tore. The entire 28 foot x 1 foot panel along the seam is rotten. The admiral and I basically decided it's going in the trash.

I left the 155 in the closet and am taking the 110 and 135 down tomorrow to see how they go up and down. I'll try everything out for a couple of weeks and, if it's too much work, order a new 135 roller from CD ($614).

Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - JimB517 on 10/23/2003 01:36:50

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 10:46:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 prognosis:

All sails were laid in the driveway this evening. The 135% is like new and has its own sheets. The material is crisp, shiny, and has big semi transparent panels with lots of fibers running through. Looks like packing tape. It is a North. The material is fairly light (but nothing like my 0.5 oz spinnaker). It seems very tough. I think excellent condition.

Indiscipline 1978 FK #398
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gosh Jim That 135 sounds pretty strange, since I collect strange sails, why don't you send it to me and I will give you $100. for the trouble.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 10:49:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Remember, on your feet or on your knees, we are all going to die.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm saving that for a rum overdose in the Caribbean about forty years from now.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you look at JB's email address I don't think he is intemidated by a shackle!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Me thinks you've mistaken afnnet.com for afn.gov. We rebranded the this company from America's Fiber Network to AFN Communications, but now we affectionately refer to it as Another F'ing Network. Be that as it may, no, I'm not intimidated by a shackle; or much of anything else, for that matter. However, singlehanding has enough inherent risks as it is, so risk reduction is the name of the game; especially when your child is on board. Furthermore, the size shackle required to accomodate sheets weighs down the clew in light air and also must take it's toll on the shrouds, mast and deck during tacks.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Forgive me for speaking for you JB, if I were you I would try a shackle and if what you see worries you... sell it to me cheap!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Actually, I have three sets of sheets, so it's a mot point. From full main/155% to reefed main/155% is done in the cockpit. From 155% to 110% or 110% to 80%: 1) slacken jib halyard, 2) drag new sail to bow, 3) release working sail tack from stem fitting, 3) attach tack and hank on new sail under old sail, 4) secure* new sail along lee rail, 5) fair new sail sheets** on way back to cockpit, 6) back and douse old sail, 7) switch jib halyard to new sail, 8) unhank old sail, roll and stuff down hatch, 9) adjust cars and raise new foresail. All this can be accomplished in only a couple of minutes.

*I use a shock cord run doubled-up above lifeline, fore and around aft pulpit stanchion, below lifeline. This keeps the shock cord from running down the lifelines or up the pulpit stanchion. It also allows the new sail to be bundled up, stuffed underneath the cord, and then hauled up without having to undo gaskets. However, remember that the sheets have to run OVER the shock cord.

**I have double-wide roller cars to accomodate two sets of sheets (e.g., genoa/jib or genoa/spinnaker).

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 10:58:51

Jim those are laminante racing sails and you should use them alot. It is tragic if you have those sails and cannot use them regularly. Does your furler let you hank on? That seems unlikely.

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 12:26:55

It maybe too late to reply to this, but I will anyways:

Jim said: "The jib sheet leads for the roller is one single long piece of rope that is attached in a half hitch in the genoa cringle. For the hank on sails I need to cut this and either tie bowlines to the sail before hoisting . . .."

I don't understand why you think (or, thought) you had to cut the jib sheet from the roller furling sail? I'd take it off, feed the mid-point of the sheet, doubled, through the clew cringle of the other sail, and feed the ends through the the loop and tighten. Same sheet, light weight and effective. Or, am I missing something.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 12:46:25

Yes, the furler allows hanked on sails. You just drop the furled sail, use it's halyard to hoist the hanked on jib, there is a standard forestay. All lines are led to the cockpit. The Schafer furler is really simple, just release the halyerd clutch and drop the whole thing, pull a pin on the deck, and you're done.

This boat was raced extensively, in the 1999 C25 Nationals (4th place), in the Newport to Ensenada race (12th in class). You wouldn't believe all the race gear on board. Race bottom, computer faired keel, etc. I think I could sell the oversize Barient self tailing winches alone for more than I paid for the boat (just about). There are also 2 genoa tracks (one inside along the cabin wall).

I've got the sails in the van and I'm going to try them this evening.

As to the sheets, I thought I'd have to run these long ropes through the cringle each time I changed sail. I didn't know there were sheets already on each sail. Can you believe it's the first time I've opened these sail bags?

Like Christmas in October to find laminate racing sails in there.

Thanks again for your help.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 12:55:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 This boat was raced extensively, in the 1999 C25 Nationals (4th place), in the Newport to Ensenada race (12th in class). You wouldn't believe all the race gear on board. Race bottom, computer faired keel, etc.
Like Christmas in October to find laminate racing sails in there.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You shouldn't be out there stalking fish, you should be out there stalking other boats! You could hustle races.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 13:00:28

I've got a lot to learn about sailing (but then, who doesn't)? I've never sailed without a roller furler.

So meanwhile, how do you attach the genoa tack to the forestay? It's just a ring. Tie it or clip it on? What holds it down?

By the way, I also have a lot to learn about fishing. I enjoy both, especially fishing in light winds. Stronger winds I leave the poles below.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 13:16:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
So meanwhile, how do you attach the genoa tack to the forestay? It's just a ring. Tie it or clip it on? What holds it down?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A shackle, preferably a snap shackle.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 13:19:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I've got a lot to learn about sailing (but then, who doesn't)? I've never sailed without a roller furler.

So meanwhile, how do you attach the genoa tack to the forestay? It's just a ring. Tie it or clip it on? What holds it down?

By the way, I also have a lot to learn about fishing. I enjoy both, especially fishing in light winds. Stronger winds I leave the poles below.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You shackle the tack to the stem fitting. non swivel snap shackles with a clevis shackel to connect them to the stem fitting are what most people use, you can just use any old shackle that is tall enough but the snap shackles make it so easy to connect the tack and you don't need to worry about the pin coming out that holds the shackle to the stem fitting. Most people would use a shackle with a threaded ot twist lock pin for this, when you open and close a shackle every time you put your sail on (do people bend headsails?) you are asking for error. If you use a snap shackle with a clevis pin shackle for a bail then you pit it on once.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 13:22:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
You shackle the tack to the stem fitting. non swivel snap shackles with a clevis shackel to connect them to the stem fitting are what most people use, you can just use any old shackle that is tall enough but the snap shackles make it so easy to connect the tack and you don't need to worry about the pin coming out that holds the shackle to the stem fitting. Most people would use a shackle with a threaded ot twist lock pin for this, when you open and close a shackle every time you put your sail on (do people bend headsails?) you are asking for error. If you use a snap shackle with a clevis pin shackle for a bail then you pit it on once.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Verbose

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A shackle, preferably a snap shackle.

J.B. Manley<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Succinct

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 10/23/2003 20:47:32

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 17:50:27

Also, if JB didn't say it, you want to try to keep the foot of the hanked on sail as low as possible. I guess is so that air doesn't escape underneath.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 19:08:53

Actually, Don, I made a 24" SS pennant for my 110% and 80% to improve visibility. I haven't noticed any appreciable difference in performance, but the view compared to my deck sweeper is wonderful.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2003 : 19:23:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Verbose<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I talk to myself, critisize myself, argue sometimes...but I have never ever replied to my own forum posts......I'm glad to see it can be worse...

By the way, the reason the quote from your second personality did not format correctly is that you had a "/" in the opening "[quote]"

Good night you two.....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2003 : 00:04:38

I hanked on the 110 tonight and sailed in light winds......

It was terrific! The boat is much faster and points a whole lot higher like 20 degrees off the wind instead of 40!

I can't wait to try the 135 laminate.

Other than dropping the sail in the drink when I doused it the first time it was not really that much more work. Perhaps an extra 10 to 15 minutes.

I may never go back.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2003 : 10:01:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I may never go back.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, baby, yeah!

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2003 : 10:13:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I hanked on the 110 tonight and sailed in light winds...It was terrific! The boat is much faster and points a whole lot higher like 20 degrees off the wind instead of 40!...I can't wait to try the 135 laminate...Other than dropping the sail in the drink when I doused it the first time it was not really that much more work. Perhaps an extra 10 to 15 minutes...

I may never go back.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's what I said when I went from hanked on to roller furling!

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