Association Forum - Swing vs Fin Keel Pointing ability

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing vs Fin Keel Pointing ability

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

weluvlife
Navigator

Member Avatar

166 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/25/2003 : 19:39:32

Hello,

A freind asked me today, which of the two C25's points better, the swing or the fixed fin keel?

I suppose this depends almost entirely on which of the two keels provide the most lift?

Mark Eichman
Lake Don Pedro,CA
www.lakedonpedrosailingclub.org
'86 c25 TR, SK

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2003 : 21:35:02

A question back: Why does he ask?

My guess (it's only that) is that the swing points slightly higher and is slightly faster overall due to its deeper draft, slightly lower wetted surface, and slightly thinner shape. However, if you (1) plan to keep the boat in salt water, (2) don't plan to race one-design, or (3) don't plan sail off a trailer, the swinger is probably not the best choice. 1500 lbs of movable cast iron suspended from a stainless steel cable is an accident waiting to happen. That's probably why Catalina discontinued them and went with the wing keel--equally trailerable and certainly offering creditable performance for cruising.

Fresh water sailers have better odds with the cable and cast iron. In salt water, bargain hunters take their chances, and occasionally sink. A racer who wants to go fast and point high might want to pick a boat that wasn't designed to be a trailerable family cruiser.

Our racers will probably disagree...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/25/2003 21:37:00

Brooke Willson
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2003 : 22:58:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> 1500 lbs of movable cast iron suspended from a stainless steel cable is an accident waiting to happen.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Our racers will probably disagree...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

, , , as might those of us who have had our swing keels in salt water without incident for many years . . . thirteen years in the water year-round in my case.

After reading this quite exhausted subject for the last five years, my observation is that catastrophic swing keel failures are much the minority. Which is not to deny that when it does happen, it is truly a catastrophe.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 10/25/2003 23:00:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2003 : 09:16:31

The general consensus of opinions I've heard is that the swinger points a wee bit higher than the fin keel, but not enough to justify giving the swinger and the fin keel different handicap ratings. I've raced my fin against swingers and wings, and that sounds right to me.

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2003 : 09:57:15

On a boat-for-boat basis, I'd agree completely with Steve. Plus, other "variables" may contribute "+" or "-" considerably more to pointing ability than the keel on our C25s. Age and condition of the sails; roller furling jib or not; age and condition of running rigging; standing rig tension or lack of tension.......not to mention things like - sail adjustment line tension (cunningham, vang, sheets, outhauls, halyards, back stay adjuster, etc.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2003 : 14:29:39

From Practical Sailor:

The swing keel is noticeabley slower upwind than the fin keel. The swing keel is not as hydrodynamically sleek, and the keel lifting cable is out in the open where it causes extra drag, intensified if seaweed gets hung up on it.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2003 : 15:52:32

John - I think that every C22 racer would vehemently disagree with Practical Sailor (maybe P.S. is correct in straight line sailing upwind, but not in fastest getting to the weather mark). The knowledgeable C22 racers won't take a fixed (or fin) keel to their Nationals for this very reason. The swing tacks faster and produces less leeway than the fixed. It's also slower going downwind, which as Steve M. remarked, is why both configurations have the same PHRF.
I make the assumption that the same holds true for the C25.
However, the fixed is better in either very light or very heavy air.
Derek

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

Members Avatar

202 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2003 : 16:39:20

How does the wing keel compare to swing or fin?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/26/2003 : 18:47:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cch
 How does the wing keel compare to swing or fin?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
More trailerable than the fin, slightly less upwind performance than either one, but a very good option in what is a compromise design--as all boats are to some degree. If you want a C-25, don't pass up an opportunity for a good wing keel specimen.

Note: I know of no data to support my opinions on performance...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/26/2003 18:53:15

Raskal
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2003 : 18:33:00

One point worth considering about the fin is that its 4' draft is really modest for a full keel and makes it a handier choice over the complexities of a swing than the same choice in larger boats, where the full keels start to poke into the 5' range. C25's seem to be very popular in inland freshwater and gunkholing coastal areas, but up here on the deep and rocky New England coast the extra-shallow draft of the wing is not something to pay a big premium for; The performance shoot-out between fin and swing is the issue...

"it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing..."

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - Raskal on 10/27/2003 18:36:10

77Gypsy
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2003 : 20:00:08

i've owned a 77 swinger and now a 78 fin, in my best "guestimate" with all sails being the same and no furling on either, i would think the swing would tend to drift a little more leeward than the fin because of the difference of actual square footage of the keel surface with lateral resistance.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2003 : 15:39:55

I have sailed my fin against a swinger. I don't think there is a great difference in pointing ability, I thin they were a little higher on the whole. But I ususally went up wind faster and down wind about the same. The only time that they would leave me was when they flew their spinny. But then again I'd usually pass them when they tried to take it down again.

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 18:11:40

An excerpt from Practical Sailor’s PRACTICAL BOAT BUYING, 6TH Edition:

On the Catalina 25: Under PREFORMACE AND HANDELING

“…The Catalina 25, with a PHRF rating of around 228 for the standard rig or 222 for the tall rig, is not especially fast for its size

. In fact, the swing-keel version, which is slower upwind than the fin-keel version, probably deserves a higher time allowance than it’s been given. The fin-keel is generally acknowledged to sail close to it’s rating…” 

of course this is practical sailors opinion but I thought it would help

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 19:22:42

I wonder how P.S. came to that decision - it contradicts everything the racers say about the swing/fixed keel performance (both for the C22 and the C25). Things get more confusing every day...I must be getting old

Derek

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 22:01:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I wonder how P.S. came to that decision...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
PS is following conventional wisdom about centerboarders, forgetting that a swing keel is different from a centerboard. That, or they're guessing, and guessed wrong.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 22:19:11

Now THAT makes sense, Dave

Derek

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 01:46:10

i would think the swinger would be a bit faster just because of the weight diff. i only posted the quote from practical sailor because i thought it was interesting.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 07:52:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">An excerpt from Practical Sailor’s PRACTICAL BOAT BUYING, 6TH Edition:

On the Catalina 25: Under PREFORMACE AND HANDELING

“…The Catalina 25, with a PHRF rating of around 228 for the standard rig or 222 for the tall rig, is not especially fast for its size <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Balderdash! I can't think of any 25 foot cruiser or racer/cruiser that can consistently beat a C-25, with or without a handicap.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/31/2003 08:00:40

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 09:08:19

Balderdash AND pifflepoo!!! I agree with Steve (again, shucks - that's the 3rd time this year!!) There isn't a 25' or 26' boat on the lake that I cannot beat consistently (I do have problems beating the J-24 though...but do it about 1/3rd of the time). I think P.S. should stick to testing products - not boats!
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 11:03:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Balderdash AND pifflepoo!!! I agree with Steve (again, shucks - that's the 3rd time this year!!) There isn't a 25' or 26' boat on the lake that I cannot beat consistently (I do have problems beating the J-24 though...but do it about 1/3rd of the time). I think P.S. should stick to testing products - not boats!
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I love my boat but you guys are all delusional. A fast sailboat should be fast on all points of sail an in all tactical situations. We do not tack quickly because we are mast head rigged, a big head sail cannot tack as fast as a small one. Our mains are relatively small. Our rigs are small (we lack the beam and hull shape to take advantage of the tall rig SA) and our boats are heavy so we accelerate poorly. We cannot plane. We point poorly because there is not a decent foil section on any of our various keel designs. Our waterline allows us to reach well for a 25’ boat, that’s nice, that is also one point of sail. Our boats are nice cruisers that sail well. If you can beat J-24s their skippers suck. Don’t hate me.

I will now commit seppuku.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 12:47:01

Frank, most of the things you say are true to an extent (except the part about Derek and I being delusional. I'm not delusional, but I can't vouch for Derek.

), but every boat has its design sailing characteristics, and you have to learn how to overcome their disadvantages and make them work for you. That's not only true of C-25s, but it is also true of J-24s. For example, the C-25s weight is not entirely a disadvantage. They will coast farther in light air, enabling you to sail from puff to puff more readily. In moderate to strong wind it is much easier to tack the big genoa. We can plane if the conditions are right, and with good sail trim we can almost point with the racing boats (bearing in mind that they have to give us a lot of time). If you think our J-24 skippers suck, come over to Brookville Lake next spring and have a go at them.

I'm not saying the C-25 is the equal of all racing boats. I'm just saying it can consistently beat any cruiser or racer/cruiser of similar size, and that it can beat racers like the J-24 often enough to really annoy their skippers.

Most C-25 owners don't prep their boats as meticulously as the owners of J-24s and other racing boats. A C-25 that is well-prepped and tuned to race is much faster than you might think.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 13:07:23

I can beat most C25's with my cruising c250wk. The tall rigs are a little harder.

If I ever learn how to race you guys are in trouble.

I only know enough to be dangerous.

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 13:29:13

i've beeten a c27 for what it's worth, however, i would never race a j24. that boat is too light and too fast.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 13:45:29

We can plane if the conditions are right, ...

with a jet engin attached to the stern

Edited by - on

LOREN SOUERS
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
100 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 14:02:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]The swing tacks faster and produces less leeway than the fixed. It's also slower going downwind,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I read a lot more than I write, but this statement surprises me. I was always taught to raise the centerboard going downwind on smaller sailboats. the point was to reduce drag and the lateral resistance was not necessary downwind. It seems to me that the swing keel would be quicker downwind (than the fin keel I own). What am I missing here?

Loren Souers, skipper
Nimue, the Lady of the Lake (on the hard

til may)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 14:33:06

Loren - you are not allowed to raise your swing keel going downwind, so there is more drag than with the fixed.
Frank - the J-24 skipper is a former C22 Natl. Champion and a NOOD winner in a J-24. He's only been racing since 1960 so he probably still has a lot to learn...

Derek

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.