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What does it weigh?

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ppetracca
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USA
163 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/28/2003 : 17:00:43

OK...a little help, please.

Who knows what a fin keel, tall rig combined with a trail-rite 2-axle trailer weighs in total?

Let's assume dry weight and no motor? Any ideas? Trying to figure out actual weight to be towed when I pull my boat in the spring.

I know the dry weight of the boat is around 4550 and I know the max capacity of the trailer is 7,000. Has anyone ever taken their boat to the scales?

(Trying to convince my wife I MUST have a new truck before next summer.)

Would appreciate any insight.

Edited by - on

Raskal
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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2003 : 18:37:34

Whoah! I can't help you with the trailer, and the Catalina brochures don't seem to list a weight differential for standard vs. tall rig, but you are seriously off on the dry weight of the boat. If you click the "brochures and manuals" link on the home page you should be able to find the weight chart under "insert" [http://www.catalina25-250.org/manbro/pictures/bro79-5.jpg]. The fin is 4550 lbs PLUS 1900 lbs ballast for a total weight of 6450 lbs

. That's pretty heavy for trailering, and the next posters will probably give you the numbers for the weight of the trailer:

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2003 : 18:56:07

I always understood that the "dry weight" of the C25 TRFK was 4550 lbs which INCLUDED the ballast. That's what my owner's manual states.
If the total weight was 6450 lbs, by the time you put it on the trailer you would need a 10,000 lb tow vehicle...

Derek

Edited by - on

ppetracca
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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2003 : 19:13:13

I am 99.9999% sure that the total displacement given in the specs includes the ballast. If it did not, I seriously doubt the 6,400 lb towing capacity of my Dodge would have pulled it from Tyler, TX to Albuquerque as easily as it did.

I also know that the Trail-Rite single axle trailer for Catalina '22 weighed in at about 1,000 lbs. I am thinking the dual axle must be around 1800.

I guess when I get it out of the lake I'll just have to weigh it.

The weight difference between the standard rig and tall rig mast lengths is probably nominal.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 00:29:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ppetracca

Who knows what a fin keel, tall rig combined with a trail-rite 2-axle trailer weighs in total?
preciate any insight.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I just had my new boat on a local truck scale last month. The boat is an '89 wing keel, tall rig, Mk. IV, on a heavy-duty (10,500# capacity) tandom axle trailer. The boat and trailer, with a Honda 7.5 outboard, and full fuel and water tanks, was 7750#. The trailer by itself is 1900#, so the boat and motor weigh about 5850#. We have another Catalina 25WK Mk. IV-inboard diesel in our sailing club, that has been weighed on the same local truck scale at an astounding 9000#!! This boat is on a trailer that also weighs about 1900#, so the boat alone weighs 7100#. This is a boat that is loaded with extra battereiesm cruising gear, (even radar!), so is probably about the heaviest Catalina 25 ever.

My point is that even the earliest, lightest Catalina 25's, the '77-'80 Mk. I's, are much heavier than most other trailerable 25' sailboats made nowadays, and you really need a heavy-duty 3/4 ton pickup, SUV, or full-size Van, or better yet, a 1-ton dually, to tow them safely. Did you hear about the recent accident and total loss of a Catalina 25 Mk. IV down in Texas, I think it was? The owner, apparently unclear on the concept of just how big and heavy a Catalina 25 on a trailer is, was pulling it with (for crying out loud!) a GMC Envoy! A mini-SUV with even less towing capability than an F-150 light-duty pickup! The driver had to hit the brakes hard to avoid a sudden traffic slowdown up ahead, and the whole rig jackknifed and rolled, totalling the Envoy, the boat, and the trailer (but not seriously injuring anyone by some miracle).

Also, IMHO, the Catalina 25 is a tad too heavy for the usual 7500# capacity trailer. If you ever need to have your trailer overhauled, or buy a new one, I strongly advise the springs, axles, wheels, tires, and brakes be upgraded to the next larger capacity. The "standard" Catalina 25 trailer has 3750# capacity axles and springs, with 15" 5-bolt wheels and load range "C" tires. Better to use 5200# axles and springs, with 16" 6-bolt wheels and load range "D" tires. The trailer will be much less likely to suffer a breakdown and strand you somewhere by the side of the road with a broken spring or bent axle.

If you are serious about towing capacity for a Catalina 25, get a Ford or Dodge with a diesel engine and 6-speed manual transmission. Don't get a gas engine truck and don't get an automatic transmission unless you absulutely can't abide with a stick shift. I prefer the Dodge for the Cummins in-line-6 engine (easier to work on than a V-8). The Ford diesel, which is a Navistar V-8, is smoother and quieter, snd if you don't do your own oil & filter changes, the more difficult maintenace of a V-8 may not be an issue. The Dodge gets slightly better fuel economy, 15mpg towing the boat, vs about 12~13 for the Ford. Compare either of these diesel trucks to the 6~7mpg you get towing a Catalina 25 with a gas engine truck and you can see a clear and immediate benefit to the diesel. The $4500 initial purchase price option cost for eith the Ford or Dodge diesel will pay for itself in the first 50,000 miles in fuel savings.

I don't mention the Chevy, because the Isuzu-built diesel engine that GM is using in the new Silverado has no track record upon which to get a feel for it's longevity and durability, so I have no opinion of it either way, but would not buy one on the principle that it's risky to buy any vehicle with a new engine design until it has been out for several years and the bugs have been worked out.

I just towed my new Mk. IV wing keel boat all the way from Virginia to California, 3100 miles, in my '98 Dodge Cummins (5-speed stick), with a cab-over camper on the bed, and averaged 13mpg at 65mph, and the truck never hiccupped, overheated, or gave any sign of trouble. Sorry if I sound like a Dodge salesman, but I like my truck enough to recommend it, at least for the Cummins engine, which in my opinion is WHY you buy a Dodge truck. If you are going to buy a gas engine truck, you might as well get a Ford or Chevy, the gas engines are all pretty much the same, I think.

Edited by - on

Ben
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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 07:27:53

I can't help you with the weight of your boat, I have a SR/SK, but I did have my trailer weighed empty at one of those CAT scales on the freeway. My trailer (two axle trailrite) weighed 1,640 pounds. FYI, with the boat, the whole thing weighed in at 6,400 pounds, but it was totally empty. Didn't even have cushions.

Good luck.

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 10:14:19

I second everything that Larry (lcharlot) said. I think the stock trailers are barely 'adequate' to handle the C-25 safely, especially with the stock single axle brakes. Not much margin for error with them.

(I intend to do some upgrades to my stock EZ-Loader this winter.)

As far as diesels... Agree too, with one caveat.

IMHO the Cummins is probably the better engine when actually towing.. the Navistar is a more 'driveable' engine when you're not towing.

I am also awaiting long term reports on the Isuzu (Duramax) engine in the new GM models. Ford is also coming out with a new-generation Diesel, will see how that one works out too.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 13:46:35

If trailering is really important then you should find a used 250 WB and be done with it. Having a massive tow vehicle to tow a boat seems pretty silly unless you tow boats for a living. It sounds to me like a lot of guys got their toys justified by having a heavy boat. In truth it makes more sense to rent a truck when you need it and drive a nice car. I used to have station wagons befor my Mountaineer and feel like I have the right balance of priorities. Arrogant, huh?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 15:33:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 In truth it makes more sense to rent a truck when you need it and drive a nice car
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...or rent 5 jack stands and have a nice car.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/29/2003 15:34:27

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 15:51:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...or rent 5 jack stands and have a nice car. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Works for me...

Edited by - on

ppetracca
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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 16:15:56

Frank,

I can't believe you would suggest a WB! I'd buy a Peterbuilt before I'd give up may boat!

It's funny the range of opinions here. In June/July Trailering Magazaine (from BoatUS), they suggest only automatics and 2 wheel drive with locking diferrentials. They do recommend diesels but don't feel "dualies" are necessary unless you are towing extremely heavy loads.

Seriously, my boat is in the water 98% of the time. It's this trip to the west coast next summer I am thinking of. I towed it home from Tyler, TX with no problems, was just thinking of a little more power.

Also, I can more than justify a new truck every year for my business. I tow pressure washing equipment all over the state as well as horse trailers and various other equpment.

One things is certain, with the poor lake predictions for next year, I won't be sitting at the house looking at my boat in the drive-way. It would kill me. I don't know how you seasonal sailors survive the winter.

Our sailing club is forming an all dingy fleet so we can have races if the lakes drop below usable levels for us. I've never tried dingy sailing, but it looks fun.

Edited by - on

Doug G.
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 18:13:33

You deserve a new truck, regardless of the total weight.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 18:44:18

To add my two cents...I have the original paperwork that came with my 1984 fin keel. It states the ballast is 1900 lbs and the total displacement (including ballast) is 4550. As for trucks, 3/4 ton is the way to go...unless you have something really heavy duty like an Avalanche or Suburban with big V8. Short infrequent trips, gas V8, many long trips, pay the extra $4 to $5,000 and go with the diesel. However, I must disagree with one of our compadres, and go with an automatic and the Chevy diesel V8. It is made by Isuzu, which has made millions of them and there is an available 5 speed Allison heavy duty auto transmission that is in lots of big rigs and motor homes.

You want a new truck, tell your wife you have our permission!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 19:19:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ppetracca
 Frank,

I can't believe you would suggest a WB!

Our sailing club is forming an all dingy fleet so we can have races if the lakes drop below usable levels for us. I've never tried dingy sailing, but it looks fun.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I do like my boat more everyday but I respect the 250s more everyday as well.

DO you really mean dingy? As in row/sail? If you mean daysailor you will really have fun. There are a ton of old daysailors 14-18 ft. Great stable boats that will plane and pump up your adrenalin in a blow. You can put batteries and lights in them with a kicker and have a nice little pond yacht. I miss mine.

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ppetracca
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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 19:33:28

I guess I do mean daysailors...although there are several with Walker Bay boats with sail kits. I am thinking more like Lido, Sunfish, Laser, Capri...that type of boat. I know we have members with O'Day 16, Lido 14, and a couple others. That's the type of thing I am looking for...something with a headsail and a lot of getting wet! Above else, though, mono-hulls. It looks like a blast to me.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/29/2003 : 19:41:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ppetracca
 I guess I do mean daysailors...although there are several with Walker Bay boats with sail kits. I am thinking more like Lido, Sunfish, Laser, Capri...that type of boat. I know we have members with O'Day 16, Lido 14, and a couple others. That's the type of thing I am looking for...something with a headsail and a lot of getting wet! Above else, though, mono-hulls. It looks like a blast to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A Flying Junior is 14 ft of respected one design. The old Chrysler "Pirate " series were good boats and of course the O'Day Daysailor is a great boat. It is a ringer for my old Tanzer 16 (Canadian). It is a great genre of sailing, I still buy hicking sticks for my boats!

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mtiffee
1st Mate

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USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 09:43:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 In truth it makes more sense to rent a truck when you need it and drive a nice car.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Please tell me who rents trucks with tow hitches.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/30/2003 : 11:28:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mtiffee
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 In truth it makes more sense to rent a truck when you need it and drive a nice car.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Please tell me who rents trucks with tow hitches.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Check with equipment rentals not car or moving rentals. Check with a local leasing Co that may have one off lease that they will rent for a week. Check with local dealership business managers. Ask the guy down the street, he may even want to crew!

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 23:17:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 If trailering is really important then you should find a used 250 WB and be done with it. Having a massive tow vehicle to tow a boat <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Back in 1996, I came to the conclusion that my Catalina 22 was just too small and cramped and I was tired of whacking my head on the pop-top even when it was raised. So, I started shopping for a larger boat and one of the first I looked at was a then-new Catalina 250WB (the wing keel version didn't come out until a year or two later). I had been on a couple of Catalina 25's belonging to members of my sailing club, and was familiar with the boat, but did not have a tow vehicle capable of hauling an 8000# boat+trailer. At my first tour of a C-250, I was almost shocked at how small it seemed inside compared to the older C-25. Especially bothersome was the lack of a full-length pop-top, which both the C-22 and C-25 had, and the lack of a full length V-berth or dinette berth. It seemend to me that in a pinch, you could sleep 2 or 3 adults and 2 or 3 children in a C-25, but only 2 people total in a C-250 since the aft berth appeared to be the only berth large enough to sleep in, at least for adults. Worst of all was the short headroom, barely 5'-0" - my Catalina 22 had 8" more than that with the pop-top raised. So that's how I ended up with a Catalina 25 (actually two of them at the moment!), and eventually a Dodge Cummins diesel to pull it with - the Catalina 250 is just too small and cramped for a 6'-2", 280# guy. In all fairness, the C-250 does sail nicely and will run rings around a Catalina 25, especially in light air, but I wanted a boat comfortable enough to do two or three week cruises in, and the C-250 just didn't have enough amenities or creature comforts to meet my expectations for the then-$24,000 price tag, when nice Catalina 25's of '78-'82 vintage were going for $7000 to $9000. If I was a small guy, 5'-6" and 160#, it would be different, and I would probably be happy with a C-250, or would more likely have just kept my C-22.

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ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 09:39:11

Larry,

Like you, I looked at both the 250 and 25 when I moved up from my 22. However, I chose the 25 for different reasons.

I don't like the 'look' of the 250. It has no decks leading forward. It has a lot more freeboard and just does not have the classic Catalina look to it.

The one amenity my wife really liked was the head with the closing door. But, after the 22's thin curtain, our wooden folding door seems to suit her well.

As far as sailing rings around a '25, I've come to the conclusion that it is 80% the skipper and 20% the boat (when comparing relatively similar boats). I can knock the snot out of the 250 in our club, as well as all the Macgregor 26's, except one older 26c. But there is a fellow with a Hunter 26 water-ballast that I just can't seem to beat. I romp on him to windward, but he smokes me down wind everytime and he never flies more headsail than a 100. The only way I've beaten him (only 3 times in the 4 years I've been racing my 22 & 25) is by flying my chute or 150 and covering him all the way down and then slipping past him at the line or mark.

I will tell you I have always coveted the stern rail seats on the 250. There is just something about them that I think looks cool. Maybe it's because you can sit on them in the marina with a cold "dark & stormy" (my personal favorite) and watch the sun set over the marina and get a bird's eye view of the the scenary.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 13:04:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ppetracca
 I don't like the 'look' of the 250. It has no decks leading forward. It has a lot more freeboard and just does not have the classic Catalina look to it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can't tell you the awfull things people say about the 250 look at my club. Of course everyone over 25 hates the Hunters also. It is interesting to me that the young people all love the 250s and Hunters. I think Catalina and Hunter have done the right thing and we simply bring to much baggage to the party. It is after all the young people that will be buying these boats.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I will tell you I have always coveted the stern rail seats on the 250. There is just something about them that I think looks cool. Maybe it's because you can sit on them in the marina with a cold "dark & stormy" (my personal favorite) and watch the sun set over the marina and get a bird's eye view of the the scenary.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I had a shelf foot on my other boats the kids would sit on the boom, butts in the shelf foot and lean back, they always said that was the best seat on the boat. That is hard to do with the sail down.

Have you considered a Bosun's chair? You are at the mercy of who ever is supposed to tie the next beer to a line for you though.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 14:41:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In all fairness, the C-250 does sail nicely and will run rings around a Catalina 25, especially in light air....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nuh-Uhh! At the last national regatta a well-prepped and well-sailed C250 was consistently beaten by a well-prepped and well-sailed C25 tall rig. Winds varied from light to fairly strong. The C-250 is a very good boat, and the finishes were often close, but it won't run rings around the C-25.

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Bryan Beamer
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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2003 : 09:58:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In all fairness, the C-250 does sail nicely and will run rings around a Catalina 25, especially in light air....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nuh-Uhh! At the last national regatta a well-prepped and well-sailed C250 was consistently beaten by a well-prepped and well-sailed C25 tall rig. Winds varied from light to fairly strong. The C-250 is a very good boat, and the finishes were often close, but it won't run rings around the C-25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The tall rig fixed keel is faster than the c250wk most noticeable off the wind. The biggest margin between the 2 boats finishing times was in the only race on Sunday. Which also were the lightest winds during a race.

I think the C25TR and SR have to give the c250wk time in a PHRF handicap race.
My local PHRF # is 237. I think the C25TR are at 218, and the SR are at 222.

I wonder what the corrected time would show from the 2003 Nationals?
I don’t know how to calculate the formula.

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