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Confession time...who's is largest?

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ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/31/2003 : 15:03:16

Curious what is the largest outboard anyone has on their Cat 25.

I'm thinking of upgrading before our trip out west. My 8 hp is fine getting in & out of my slip on the lake, I rarely use it otherwise. But I'm thinking I might want some more muscle in the swell out there.

15-25 seems to be the range, but with a new heavy duty moutning bracket. I can always store it for trips since I don't need it on a regular basis.

I want to be able to maintain 6 knots motoring in any condition. (Guess I'll upgrade from 3 gallon tank while I'm at it.)

Personal observations appreciated.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 15:28:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ppetracca
 Curious what is the largest outboard anyone has on their Cat 25.

I'm thinking of upgrading before our trip out west. My 8 hp is fine getting in & out of my slip on the lake, I rarely use it otherwise. But I'm thinking I might want some more muscle in the swell out there.

15-25 seems to be the range, but with a new heavy duty moutning bracket. I can always store it for trips since I don't need it on a regular basis.

I want to be able to maintain 6 knots motoring in any condition. (Guess I'll upgrade from 3 gallon tank while I'm at it.)

Personal observations appreciated.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Will you adopt me?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 16:37:09

My (classic) Honda 8 will push me at hull speed at 1/3 throttle in any Pacific Ocean offshore conditions I've seen yet. I honestly believe 6 or even 4 hp would be enough. Everything above 1/3 throttle just makes noise, squats the stern, and burns fuel.

I carry 10 gallons of fuel in the lazerette (for cruising) and 10 more in the V berth.

Besides, we'll be motor sailing in the mornings and pure sailing in the afternoons.

I think if the waves and winds were so big that I needed more HP my outboard would be getting dunked. In that case I'd be sailing under a reefed main - no motor needed.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 16:45:18

Your's is bigger than mine.

Your 8 ought to push the boat at 6 kts. in most conditions. In truth, if the conditions are such that the 8 doesn't give you enough thrust to control the boat, you shouldn't be out. Our slow, low powered boats have a lot of windage, and they can be overwhelmed easily by a strong tidal current, which can be as strong as 6-7 kts., or by a wind that is so strong that you can't bring the bow across the wind. If the conditions are such that your 8 can't cope, a 15 or 25 isn't likely to do any better because of the probability that the prop will cavitate in those conditions.

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 17:12:42

Thanks for the advice....saves me a buck or two. I know that when it blows 30+ on the lake and we have wavelets around 1-2 ft I have no problems. Just don't have the effects of large swell and currents/tides to compare to. Good point, Jim...if the wind is up, who will motor!

Frank, I'll adopt you, but are you of an age that I can get the tax deduction? (You don't have to answer!)

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 17:15:16

By the way, Jim...how are the fires effecting you where you guys live? Hope you are safe & sound.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 18:21:03

Can't help putting in a plug for my dream motor Yamaha T8 extra long shaft.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/products/subcatinfo.asp?lid=5& lc=otb& cid=19& scid=4& but=14& year=2004& cat=Four Stroke Series& scat=High Thrust

There is also a 9.9 HP available, which has 12 amp instead of 6 amp alternator. Electric start. All controls on the throttle. High Thrust, geared for sailboats. 108 lbs. Only problem is that you have to remove the cowl to use the manual start.

Only $2800 But then all my old Honda problems are fixed and it's running perfect ($0).

One of my slip neighbors has the Yamaha 15 on his 27 footer. He loves it. Nothing to worry about.

BTW

Fires are mostly contained and far away from our house. The air is clear and our lives are back to normal (kids are still out of school). It's sunny, breezy and cool. Waves are up to near 4 feet. Fish are still biting. I've got some amazing photos of our home and office areas to post later.

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 18:23:15

i have a 9.9 but i think an 8 would also be OK, I have eard of a guy with a 15hp. i can't imagine why, especially concidering the extra weight aft. the boaty must not sail very well.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 18:26:33

By the way, the only way you are going to see winds 30 plus on next summer's cruise is on the freeway trailering down. None of those conditions Steve mentions will be encountered. If the are, you'll be sailing without me (meet me at the bar when you turn back!!)

You need to set the boat up for light airs, headwinds, calm seas, anchoring, camping on the beach, cleaning fish, charging batteries, ...

A drifter would be a better investment than a bigger motor!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 19:16:05

First, regarding currents, your hull speed (6.3 or so) is the speed through the water, whether it's moving or not. If you're motoring against a 7 knot current, you'll go backward no matter what motor you have--unless it's about 75 hp.

8 hp is plenty for a C-25, especially if it has a prop appropriate to a displacement hull--meaning low pitch and large diameter, called High Thrust by Yamaha and Power Thrust by Honda. Standard props are designed to push planing hulls to speed--not to horse a 5500# displacement hull around a dock or push it through heavy chop.

Even more important than the prop for dealing with heavy conditions is the depth of the prop--generally meaning shaft length. Hanging aft of the transom on a C-25, the prop can easily be lifted by the pitching of the boat. Heel toward the opposite side (even under bare poles in a blow) can make it even worse. An extra-long shaft should be your first priority--Honda's is a fraction under 28", and Yamaha's is 25".

With the right depth and the right prop, 8 is great, 9.9 is fine, and 15 is just a lot of weight you don't need back there. Honda's 8 is literally the same engine as the 9.9, except for the price. I have never come close to using all of my Honda 8, and that's been in some really nasty stuff (35-40 sustained with 4-5' square waves) on Long Island Sound. Keeping the prop down in chop was the only issue. Swell is not a problem.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/31/2003 19:27:53

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 20:29:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 77Gypsy
 i have a 9.9 but i think an 8 would also be OK, I have eard of a guy with a 15hp. i can't imagine why, especially concidering the extra weight aft. the boaty must not sail very well.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Older 9.9 and 15's are identical engines with different carburation, they weigh the same. Kinda like the new Nissan 8 and 9.9 are the same engine.

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 21:06:35

OK...so let's back up a step. I have a 1992 8hp electric start motor. I've always assumed it was a long shaft. From where to where do you measur the shaft length? Also, it seems to me I could drop the motor brack down a little bit into the higher set of mounting holes and add a little depth.

I also have a 1985 Evinrude Yachtwin 9.9 hp motor. It came with my '25 but I put the 8 on because I don't like the controls. (F/R lever on side. The Merc is all included in the tiller/throttle handle.)

How do I find out wat amp alternator is in each motor? Can I put a meter on the leads and take a reading? If there is no difference between an old 9.9 and a newer 8, then I will keep the Merc on the boat. The 9.9 can go with my '22 when I finally put it seriously up for sale.

How do I determine what kind of prop I currently have? Maybe I just need to change the prop.

Seems like a bunch to think about. I guess that's why I sail everywhere on the lake. (So far this year, I think I've bought 4 gallons since January!)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 21:42:44

Patrick: The standard "shaft" measurement is from the top of the mounting board (or transom) to the anticavitation plate (above the prop). The prop pitch should be imprinted near the hub of the prop (diameter/pitch in inches per revolution). Standard pitch increases with horsepower, and the diameter may increase as the pitch decreases (within the limits of what fits) for "high thrust." The manufacturer is the best source for sorting that out. For inland lake motoring, your Merc may be just fine. For coastal or Great Lakes sailing, an "extra-long" shaft (25-28") is much better. The "high thrust" part is mostly useful when maneuvering around a dock or backing into a slip. The stopping and backing power is much greater.

For alternator output, do you have an owner's manual for each engine?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/31/2003 21:51:44

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2003 : 22:31:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ppetracca
 OK...so let's back up a step. I have a 1992 8hp electric start motor. I've always assumed it was a long shaft. From where to where do you measure the shaft length? Also, it seems to me I could drop the motor brack down a little bit into the higher set of mounting holes and add a little depth.

I also have a 1985 Evinrude Yachtwin 9.9 hp motor. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is the 92 a 4 stroke?
The Evinrude is a 15 hp motor, I understand that all you do is change the jets in the carbuerator. It is a 2stroke. If your 92 is a four stroke then you have a 15hp that probably weighs less than the 8hp. It does seem prop specs mean more than hp for us and low weight is better. Yachttwins were longshaft and often xtralong shaft, (like mine). Yachttwins also had props designed for sailboats, ie high thrust. Your 8hp could weigh more, have a worse prop and be too short. Sleep tight.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 07:15:28

It is my understanding that to rope start a Yamaha motor not only do you have to remove the cowl cover, but you have to remove bolts to remove another cover too. (maybe I'm wrong on this second part) But even if you have to remove a cowl that would be problematic in a swell, or chop, or high wind, UH OH, that breakwater is coming up fast, damn, now I have to thread that rope on again, maybe after that last wave which pushed me over..........what's that crunching sound?

I'm not trying to dis your decision, but I'm wondering what rocket scientist came up with that design?

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 09:26:06

Frank, I do no have the manual on the the old Evinrude 9.9. I do have the book on the Merc 8. I can't find any mention of the alternator in it. It is an Operation & Maintenance Manual for Merc's 6-8-9.9-10-15. It covers all these models, electric & manual start, tiller and remote controls. The only mention of anything electrical is on the specs page. It says the 8 has 5.9 Kilowatts.

The 8 is a 2-stroke as is the 9.9. I am beginning to think the 8 might be a short shaft. I guess I will measure both and put the 9.9 back on the boat, even though I don't like the controls as well.

Also, the old 9.9 doesn't seem to lock down like it should. When you rev it up in reverse it pulls itself out of the water. I will have to fix that if I am going to use it.

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 11:19:55

Decision made...I just returned from the yard where I store my '22 and measured the Evinrude 9.9. It is 27" from the plate above the prop to the top of the U on the motor mount. Just by looking at it I can see it is much longer than my 8. Also, the pin that keeps the motor held down is missing from the adjusting holes where you set the trim. New pin, test charging stator and I'll be ready to go! I just have to get used to the 2-part controls. It runs like a top and it is also electric start.

Thanks for everybody's advice.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 13:32:15

Now, about those carbeurator jets.

Does yours have two cavitation plates? The plate above the prop, does yours have another one about 5" up? Mine has two and measures 27-28 from the lower one to the top of the motor mount board.

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 13:36:20

Mine does have two cavitation plates. It is obviously the motor best suited to my boat...as far as the carbeurator jets, the only jets I am familiar with are the ones that are taking me to Cancun next week!!

By the way, the numbers on the prop say 9 1/2 X 10....I thnik this is Evinrude's code for "Just chill out, it will work fine, Patrick!"

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 14:59:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm thinking I might want some more muscle in the swell out there.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Although some may not think so, I feel my '85 Suzuki 6 hp has sufficient power out here. Many boats the size of ours use 6hp engines around here. Big swell doesn't really hold things up. Big wind and chop on the nose are different, but I'm almost always able to maintain 5+ knots and have never been in a situation when I haven't been able to go where I wanted. Tide and/or current aren't big factors here.

Number one issue by far for any outboard is that it runs reliably at all times. I'd take the one which you feel is most reliable.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I do not have the manual on the the old Evinrude 9.9<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ebay often sells old manuals, both owners and service, especially for Evinrude/Johnson. I recently bought a specific year/hp service manual for about $8 for my '79 Evinrude 2 hp, which is much more helpful than the multi-hp/year service manuals (like Clymer's). I've seen the specific year/hp owners manual offered on Ebay also.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2003 : 15:07:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">our lives are back to normal <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim:

It's great to hear that!!!

How bad was the ash on your boat? I'm sure we got a lot less up here, but even that was really bad. I didn't have a lot of time during the week and was only able to spray the boat off, but a lot of the ash still stuck -- big mess! Was able to steal away a while yesterday and scrub, scrub, scrub -- clean again

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 15:11:14

Ash on the boat was pretty bad. I went down Thursday at lunchtime. Spraying with the hose did nothing. A complete scrub and washdown was necessary. Ash came inside through the ventilation slots cut in the companionway boards. That was a mess, too.

This weekend I finally finsihed all cleaning (although still finding ash under cushions, etc.) Saturday my daughters came for a good sail in brisk winds and Sunday I sailed solo in strong, gusty winds under ultra clear skies.

All systems are GO and I am no longer dropping my hank on headsails in the water when it's time to drop them. I did discover that my 135 genoa is cut so low - it's a deck sweeper - that its nearly impossible to see when flying it. The 110 is a couple of feet off the deck and no problem. This weekend was way too breezy to try the 155. Sunday, truth be told, I needed to reef the main with the 110 up. Instead I stopped trying to sail into gusty 15+ winds. Downwind wing and wing the winds felt like nothing.

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2003 : 01:43:30

Your discussion of the recent fires and the impact on your boats reminds me of when we had a fire here near San Luis Obispo a few years back. Even though the fires were inland and on the grade and we were in town some miles away cinders came down and left what looked like cigarette burns on my Hobie cat's deck. I was glad the trampoline was covered with a tarp.

Edited by - on

steephen
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 18:51:04

Patrick:

No observations here except that some people feel anything bigger than a 9.9 weighs too much for the boat, and the boat can't exceed hull speed anyway, so why load her down with a huge engine?
Personal question: You have a rare last name, but I went to school in NY with a gal with that last name, in the 1960s, in Manhasset. Was that your family? Please excuse if the Forum isn't for personal inquires.
Stephen Z.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 21:00:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">people feel anything bigger than a 9.9 weighs too much for the boat,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My 2000 Honda XLS 15hp weighs the same as the new Honda XLS 9.9 and it is not as wide.

Edited by - on

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