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Mast gates a day too late

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/03/2003 : 14:09:05

NWS said 10 - 15, gusting to 20. So, I put on my 110% for the last sail of the season. Went out in a lull, although I didn't know it was a lull, and lifted the main full. Set the tiller tamer and mainsheet to a beam reach and started forward to release the foresail gasket. Midships I all of a sudden found myself standing on the cabin sides, looking straight down at the water. Uh oh, this is not good. So I headed back to ease the main and head her into the wind.

Another "lull" provided a false sense of security and an opportunity to go forward to release the foresail gasket. Once the foresail was up, Notos decided it was time to really blow. 20 - 25, with long steady gusts to 30. Obviously overpowered and out of control, I immediately went to take in a reef, of which I only have one (a soon to be remedied situation).

As I've stated before, I use a sail stop to keep the sail slugs from coming out of the slot. I NO LONGER RECOMMEND THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! The problem can be worse than just a less than perfectly shaped reef. As I was taking in my reef (one-line jiffy reefING lead aft) the reef tack came down to the sailstop with no problem, but the reef clew was held up by the strong winds. This, coincidentally, allowed the belly of the lower portion of the main to continue to fill. So, I wrapped the reefing line around the halyard winch and started winching down the reef clew. What happened next all occurred in mear seconds.

I happened to be looking at the gooseneck as I continued to winch down the reef clew when I heard a loud POP and saw the gooseneck jerk violently. During the split second that I was contemplating having broken my gooseneck, I heard a rapid succession of metallic pings. Ping, ping, ping, ping. Looking up, I saw that my main had completely separated from my mast. Thank goodness I have dousing lines for both of my sails, and I used them both simultaneously.

You've probably figured out that the original POP and jerk of the gooseneck was the sail stop slamming down out of the track due to the extreme pressure I had placed on the reef tack while trying to winch down the reef clew. Once the sail stop cut loose, the three sail slugs below the reef tack came flying out. The combination of the reef tack dropping and the slugs coming out created enough slack in the reefing line and enough additional sail belly for the wind to forcefully extract my nylon sail slugs from the track, which was the metallic pinging. Could have been worse, could have been the sound of my luff ripping from top to bottom.

Of course, my new mast gates that arrived last week were sitting in my gear bag the whole time waiting for the first project day next Spring.

J.B. Manley s/v Sea Trac Allied Seawind II #65
DPO s/v Antares Catalina 25 #4849
Association Treasurer 2002 - 2006
Association Bookkeeper 2002 - 2008
Association Quartermaster 2004 - 2008

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 14:21:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 Notos decided it was time to really blow. 20 - 25, with long steady gusts to 30. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I know our sailing is woosey compared to the blue water scenarios but there are times when the wind across the plains is "special". I am glad your rig was not hurt. At Cheney if we get knocked out of the boat we stand up and walk to shore.

How deep were you when you were stareing at the water? This time of year it is easy to be the only boat on a lake.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 14:30:58

Was this last weekend or weekend before last(25-26)?
The 25-26th was the weekend I blew out my main.
BAD winds!

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 14:36:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 At Cheney if we get knocked out of the boat we stand up and walk to shore.

How deep were you when you were stareing at the water?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

85 feet with a quarter mile swim to shore in 65 degree water. Had I known, or suspected, before I went out I would have rigged the reef, put on my 80% storm jib, rigged my jacklines, and worn my harness and tether. Totally unexpected set of circumstances and undeterminable from the marina.

There were three other boats in sight while I was out. A Catalina 30 with full main and jib staying very close hauled and holding its own. An older 30 footer that looked like a Hunter with full main and jib that I watched get knocked down. And, a Catalina 25 with a reefed main and a hanky of furler broad reaching on the lee shore (our new member Doug G.?).

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 14:37:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlie Vick
 
Was this last weekend or weekend before last(25-26)?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yesterday, 11/2. Same type conditions as the Saturday before.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 15:16:37

Now I'm wondering about the use of ss slugs in a situation like that.
I read in another thread someone mentioning the fact they would rather lose their slugs (plastic) over losing their mainsail which I'm in complete agreement with, having just lost my mainsail instead of the slugs.
Any pros or cons out there?

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 15:34:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlie Vick
 having just lost my mainsail instead of the slugs.
Any pros or cons out there?
CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It depends on your deductable

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 16:07:51

This was discussed a while back on the C250 side. Bryan had queried the wisdom of Catalina no longer running the jiffy reef line aft on the wing keel along with the halyard and the difficulty of having to effect reefing from two different points on the boat.

Likely at issue was exactly what happened to J. B. that the use of a winch to set a reef is problematic and as he confesses, he is actually fortunate that he didn't get sail damage.

Charlie is wise to consider the combination of using the winch with metal reinforced slugs.

J.B.'s experience illustrates the potential of something fouling when setting a reef and even if he'd had mast gates or jack lines on the lower slugs, the strain on the tack with a single line reefing system is more than the tack is designed for.

If a reefing line needs a winch ... it would be better to change to a two line system.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 16:11:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 If a reefing line needs a winch ... it would be better to change to a two line system.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I always assumed that with the main halyard slacked the only real issue was getting the reef clew tight. Then you haul the main halyard again. I guess heavy wind really screws up what looks good on paper!

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 16:22:33

That was exactly the point. I believe that my single line reefing system, which has worked just fine before when reefing in lighter wind or in irons before an anticipated squall line, would have worked yesterday HAD THE TACK BEEN DOWN AT THE BOOM. I was making good progress on bringing the reef clew down with the winch. It was only when the sail stop popped that all hell broke loose. Admittedly, it would be better not to have to use the winch to pull the reef clew down by reefing before or in a way that the wind isn't keeping it pulled up with significant pressure.

One big problem yesterday was that the wind was so strong that I couldn't keep her in irons, because the extreme freeboard and fin keel design allows the bow to blow off. The only way I was able to make any attempt at reefing was by hoving to. Otherwise, I would have had to drop all sail. Which is maybe what I should have done to put the reef in anyway, but I was still attempting to go for a sail and was concerned about blowing onto the lee shore without having any sail up at all.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 11/03/2003 16:24:36

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 16:37:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Now I'm wondering about the use of ss slugs in a situation like that. I read in another thread someone mentioning the fact they would rather lose their slugs (plastic) over losing their mainsail which I'm in complete agreement with, having just lost my mainsail instead of the slugs.

Any pros or cons out there?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My mainsail has plastic slugs, but if they had to be replaced, I think I would use ss slugs. The luff of most mainsails is fairly robust, and, I think it would probably withstand the stress, unless the sailcloth is old and weak. If your plastic sail slugs break, then you will lose the use of your mainsail, which is really necessary to sail to windward in high winds. Having stronger slugs would increase the likelihood that the mainsail will remain functional, and will not greatly increase the chance that the slugs will be torn out of the sail. If you are caught on a lee shore without a mainsail and with an outboard motor that is cavitating in a steep chop, you've got a real problem.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 16:58:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One big problem yesterday was that the wind was so strong that I couldn't keep her in irons, because the extreme freeboard and fin keel design allows the bow to blow off. The only way I was able to make any attempt at reefing was by hoving to.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is where an autopilot really earns it's keep.

When I need to do cabintop work in a blow and I want the bow to stay pointed into the wind and waves, I simply fire up the outboard and set the autopilot.

Edited by - on

ppetracca
Navigator

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USA
163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 17:00:09

After my second incident losing the slugs on my new main, I am changing all my slugs to SS. I agree the luff is very strong and think the chance of losing a new sail because of the stronger slugs remote. Of course, if I form this opinion, Mother Nature will show me how wrong I am next time out!

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 17:15:14

I think I would lean toward SS slugs. I have looked at the severly stressed slugs on my main during some higher wind reefing, and was thinking I hope they hold.

Always playing devils advocate I do have some what ifs. Would it be possible for the SS slugs to dammage the mast or become stuck or wedged in the track (esp. with a worn track) in severe conditions. Stainless is harder than alum. If they could get stuck one would be faced with how to depower, and probably be praying for mainsail falure.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 17:34:59

My problem was threefold. No reef, old sail (the original 22+yo main), and high winds. I don't think slug material made any difference in this situation and I hope to never be there again but I never meant to be there in the first place. Nobody with any sense puts themselves in a position like that on purpose but sometimes mother nature has a different plan.

"After my second incident losing the slugs on my new main, I am changing all my slugs to SS."

Thats my point. If you do get in that situation and you have ss slugs and a new sail which will give first? Maybe neither. Hopefully it will give me more time to at least get the sail down BEFORE there is any failure in the equipment.
One lesson learned; "Reef before you have to!"

JB, sorry to get off your original subject and sorry thats your last sail for the year. I figured you sail year round on Grand.

CVick
PanaceaII '81 C25 #2439 SRSK
Fort Smith, AR

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 17:56:14

Interesting discussion, I can picture the scene.

Unless I missed it, or is it a matter of course and doesn't need mentioning, there is one thing no one talks about.....the topping lift.

When I reef, the weight of the slapping boom, mainsheet, and boomvang...(you did release the boomvang didn't you?) is an awfull lot for the reefing line to overcome. Especially a single point system which has numerous turns to make around the various cringles and sheaves.

I use up the topping lift to bring the boom up, a foot, sometimes two. It depowers the bottom of the sail, and brings the boom closer to the new clew......now all you're dong is picking up slack. Tie it all off, including the reefing lines in the middle of the sail, and release the topping lift. Little or no force should be required.

There's been a few times in my sailing life when I resorted to using a winch, other than for a jib sheet or the last inches of a halyard. Then the little skipper on my shoulder would whisper in my ear:
"You know this shouldn't take this much force...." Invariably the next thing was a loud noise.........

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/03/2003 18:16:19

Doug G.
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 21:05:57

JB, Yes that was me flogging along Sun afternoon. It gives me and my rope burned ring finger some perverse comfort in knowing that those with experience were having trouble too. I have no working instruments yet and could only guess a wind speeds and gusts. I couldn't get crew Sunday and singlehanded in that blow. The roller furling is the only single friendly equipment onboard. Its obvious that I need to add some boat goodies for singlehanding. What's your list of most useful singlehander-helpers? Doug G

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 21:41:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 Interesting discussion, I can picture the scene.

Unless I missed it, or is it a matter of course and doesn't need mentioning, there is one thing no one talks about.....the topping lift.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hey, I was going to say that, and it's MY BIRTHDAY--where's the respect around here?

Easing the halyard takes care of the tack, and the topping lift (particularly if led aft) takes care of the clew, exactly as Oscar describes. However, the mast gates still allow the "pile" to be closer to the boom, providing better shape for the sail when you re-tension the halyard, ease the topping lift, and sheet in the boom.

Well said, Oscar...

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 22:31:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
Of course, my new mast gates that arrived last week were sitting in my gear bag the whole time waiting for the first project day next Spring.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

J.B.

Sounds like quite an experience. I have a sailing friend that has a theory that all of us will experience rough weather and difficulties sooner or later, it is just a matter of time. If someone has not undergone such an experience they haven't spent enough "time at sea" I guess one way to look at it, you won't soon forget that day sailing.

I have been using a sail stop as long as I have had my boat and never really considered the thought I would have trouble with it. I like the idea of mast gates but honestly they have fallen very far down on my priority list. I have read several threads discussing making mast gates and felt it wasn't important enough to take the time. Where did you buy yours? If I didn't have to take the time to make some I might be able to move mast gates up higher on the list.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2003 : 23:33:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cch
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
Of course, my new mast gates that arrived last week were sitting in my gear bag the whole time waiting for the first project day next Spring.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

J.B.
Where did you buy yours? If I didn't have to take the time to make some I might be able to move mast gates up higher on the list.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Joe <joemartinek@starband.net>

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2003 : 00:57:34

I got mine from Joe, top notch quality

and quick delivery. I waited awhile before ordering and wish I had ordered when I first heard about them. They are sooo much easier than a sail stop, and they don't slip out too.

Edited by - on

1grndslr
1st Mate

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34 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2003 : 08:52:02

As a newbie, what are mast gates?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2003 : 09:02:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As a newbie, what are mast gates?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mast gates are devices that close up the slot in the mast after the main's sail slugs have been inserted into the mast slot. This allows the main to fall all the way to the boom without the slugs falling out.

Click on this link to take you to an article in the Tech Tips section.

[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/nymslot.html"]Mast Gates[/url]

Edited by - on

frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2003 : 12:19:06

I am interested in these "dousing" lines you mention. I assume they drop the sails quickly? Could you explain a bit more on this subject

Frank R
85 C25 SK

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2003 : 12:49:31

Wow, looks like I missed the on-line party last night.

All - I'm going to stainless steel slugs. Between the "stickiness" and binding pliability during normal conditions and the newly discovered compressibility of the plastic/nylon slugs, I've had it. My personal opinion is that the mast track and the main luff would only be at risk in incredibly extreme conditions, and at that point it might be best if something replacable let's go.

Don - I wholeheartedly agree with the autopilot solution if 1) there is sufficient room to run (Grand Lake is only .75 miles wide, so you never have more than about .5 miles to run, and on Sunday I would have had .3 miles. So, heaving-to was my best option, and I don't think an autopilot would help heave-to) and 2) cost were not a factor.

Charlie - Normally I do sail year-round, but 1) November's shot due to scheduling conflicts including a week back home in Colorado for Thanksgiving

, 2) I needed to bring the rudder home to repair the 1/4" crack round the top and the 1/8" crack round the bottom

, and 3) I needed to bring the mainsail home to effect some batten pocket repairs and, most importantly, to convert it to a loose foot in order to eliminate the detrimental effect to close hauling of the

shelf foot. Also, going to sew up a new mainsail cover.

Oscar - Yes, yes, yes. However, the wind was strong enough to just keep lifting the reef clew up and away. See my further thoughts on the reefing line configuration and the effect of line drag that you mentioned.

Doug - You were lookin' just fine out there on Sunday. As a matter of fact, you were the only one sufficiently under control.

Search the archives for "singlehand" and you'll find lots of our previous discussions. However, all lines (halyards, lifts, dousers, reefs) led aft to the cockpit and some way to control the tiller. Then all additional suggestions center around staying on the boat (i.e., jacklines, harnesses and tethers).

Dave - Happy Birthday!

Chris - I wholeheartedly agree, and the last time it happened was the genesis for rigging my dousing lines and single line reefing system. Frank and Matt got the mast gates right, Joe Martinek. GREAT guy! $25 for extremely quick delivery and a super high quality product.

Additional thoughts from excessively dwelling on the subject; I tend to do that when I'm pissed:

1) As stated above, shelf foot on mainsail HAS GOT TO GO. Who ever thought this up and what they were thinking is beyond me. This "feature" makes going to weather much more difficult and less efficient, and makes remaining in irons (along with too much freeboard) impossible.

2) My single line reef is currently run: 1) bitter end snubbed at forward starboard boom cleat, 2) run aft through padeyes to aft starboard boom cheek block, 3) up through reef clew, 4) down through aft port boom cheek block, 5) forward through padeyes to forward port boom cheek block, 5) up through reef tack, 6) down to mast plate turning block, 7) over to deck organizer, and 8) back to rope clutch.

The effect of this configuration is that the greatest amount of force is being exerted on first the reef tack and then boom at the gooseneck (initially the sail stop in my soon to be rectified case). The force being exerted on the reef clew has then been "de-powered" by the exertion on the reef tack, the boom, and the cumulative effect of the blocks and padeyes. Furthermore, the total net forces are trying to pull the aft end of the boom to port, while also trying to rotate the boom to starboard around the gooseneck.

Preferably, the first primary force would work on bringing the harder to pull down reef clew first, then the reef tack, while exerting off-setting, equalized torsional forces on the boom. So, my preliminary thoughts are that the line should be run: 1) bitter end snubbed on starboard side of mast above boom level, 2) aft and down through forward starboard boom cheek block (upward force), 3) aft through padeyes to aft starboard boom cheek block (forward force), 4) up through reef clew, 5) down through aft port boom cheek block (forward force), 6) forward through padeyes to forward port boom cheek block (upward force), 7) up through reef tack, 8) down to mast plate turning block (eventually counterbalancing downward force), and 9) through deck organizer aft to line clutch.

Thoughts? Also, recommendations for filling screw holes in aluminum spars would be helpful

Edited by - Sea Trac on 11/04/2003 12:50:51

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2003 : 13:16:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frich
 I am interested in these "dousing" lines you mention. I assume they drop the sails quickly? Could you explain a bit more on this subject?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Frank,

Yes, the dousing lines drop the sails quickly. As you've probably experienced, lift keeps the foresail from coming down by itself. Additionally, on my rig the main is very sticky (plastic slugs, dirty track, maybe blasted sheaves). Anyway, last October (extremity must be Mother Nature's birthday present to me) I got caught after a full day's sail with full main and 155% when the afternoon wind went from a pleasant 10 to 15 up to 25 in the span of a tack.

Of course, I got blown off my tack, totally overpowered, and was then broad reaching toward a lee shore only half a mile away. While racing forward to pull down the genoa, a poorly timed step in conjuction with the bow dipping into a swell caused my heel to go out from under me. If I hadn't been holding the forward lower, I'm sure I would have slid over. Anyway, this experience drove me to rig the boat so that I don't need to go forward while under sail.

My 1/4" jib dousing line is tied to the jib halyard eye with a bowline knot, runs through turning block shackled to the stem fitting, back to a port-side, stanchion-mounted fairlead, back to a stanchion-mounted turning block, over to the deck organizer, and back to the line clutch.

My 1/4" main dousing line is tied to the sail slug immediately below the head (due to the binding effect on the top plastic slug if attached to the halyard eye, but hopefully can be moved to halyard eye once SS slugs are installed), and runs freely down to a turning block on the starboard side of the mast plate, then over to the deck organizer and back to the line clutch.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 11/04/2003 13:18:28

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.