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Got the racing bug!!

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nate
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240 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/11/2003 : 23:57:35

Until this year I would have labeled myself a "cruiser"...now after spending as much time racing this year as cruising/daysailing I'm starting to think I really dig this racing thing and want to learn more and optimize my boat for racing.
For a number of reasons, my spouse won't let me sell the C25 and buy a S2 7.9...a boat I think would still be fine to trailer and really fun to sail. So I gotta "dance with the girl I brung" for a few more years. So here are a couple questions regarding my C25 and racing:

1) Should I ditch my furler and consider a Tuff-luff even though we will still cruise sometimes or maybe switch to a Harken split-drum furler with more performance features than my CDI?

2) I have a brand new full batten main from Ullman but an older 155% genoa. If I was going to invest in one GOOD headsail should I consider a 130% genoa even though I have the shorter standard rig?

3) I have a balanced rudder and a freshly painted bottom (VC17)
What other things I should look at for performance.

4) What books on racing have others found to be helpful?

While I realize that the boat is only as good as her captain and crew I want to get all I can from my C25. As I learn more and more about racing I hope to be able to sail the boat fast and make people think her 228 handicap is inflated. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Nate Adams
C25 #5695 WK/SR/Trad
"Heeling Properties"

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 04:54:55

As for the headsail, it totally depends upon your most prevalent winds, I'd say. Unless you race where it howls, I'd get a good 155. On the race course, better to be overpowered a bit and use sail trim to counteract it than have too small of a headsail up and curse the fact that you can do little about it....If you are most always overpowered with a 155, only then would I think about the smaller headsail for racing. Dump the CDI furler for racing. I am old fashioned and use hanks. No regrets. And I am a racing "cruiser"!

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 10:13:02

IMHO your headsail choice will be determined by your venue. Your 'primary' headsail could be anything from a 110 to a lightweight drifter.

Serious racers will have a half-dozen headsails at the ready. The cost of a "complete" racing sail inventory will easily exceed the value of your boat. Since your budget won't allow this kind of outlay, you'll want the sail that wil best fit your 'expected' conditions.

When you talk racing you're talking mylar/kevlar etc. and grooved forestay.

Got a spinnaker setup?
If you have really got a serious 'racing bug' your C25 is a trainer for your future "class" boat... and mastering a spinnaker will be an important skill.

A useful book.. on trim... "Tuning Yachts and Small Keelboats" by Lawrie Smith

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 10:43:55

mylar/kevlar headsail (big $ the headsail is the main driver on our boats)
tell tales on all sails (very few $ plus learn to use them)
race tuned rigging (free - see tech tips)
whisker pole ($300 for poling out your big headsail)
all excess weight off the boat (free)
crew practice, practice, practice (fun and free)
adjustable backstay (plus learn to use it)
self tailing winches (major $)
boltrope main (instead of those slides)
rigged for spinnaker ($$ - some say a poled out 155 is nearly as good)

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 11:20:12

I haven't raced osmepneo yet, but receive a prhf credit for having a roller furler. I would want my headsail to be as big as possible, 155, and would want it to mylar kevlar. osmepneo came with one, that I haven't used, but will if I start racing seriously and remove the cdi roller furler.

Practice with your crew and expereience are vitally important. That has always been a bug for me. Crew would race but wasn't interested in practice, so we raced and never developed as much as we could.

A good bottom is very important, and as you race in bigger events, you want to make sure it is clean.

osmepneo is equipped foer spinniker, but doesn't have a whisker pole. At nationals last year the whisker pole was important for the runs downwind. I think that would be an important addition.

New sails are better than older sails. Serious racers replace sails every other year or so. I've never done that, but attest the importance of new sails. With old sails I was always in the back of the fleet with my Thistle, and when I moved up to new sails I moved up to the middle of the fleet. Sails are veital to serious racing.

But even more important is having a good time. Race, learn and enjoy the water, the wind and fellowship with other who like you enjoy racing.

BTW. I am planning my first race this coming spring. REgistered last year but couldn't get to the starting line, ob (honda 8) wouldn't start. New ob next year.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 11:51:08

Nate - some thoughts from a "harcore racer" who has a limited budget...

Have a clean "baby bottom smooth" hull (and VC-17 is a "go-fast" bottom). If you can manage to keep her out of the water when not sailing it helps a lot. The biggest headsail you can carry in your prevailing winds, a whisker pole (a 7'-17'), all the minor sail controls - cunningham, vang with a good purchase, adjustable backstay, outhaul, and if you can afford it, a double track headfoil (lets you make headsail changes during the race)which is probably worth 3 secs a mile to you over hanks, and a single-line reefing set-up (so you can reef and unreef very quickly with no need to luff up to do it).
The last thing you need to be successful is practice, practice, practice.

Derek

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 12:07:07

Nate - I forgot one easy mod - bring the traveler control lines forward to mid-cockpit so that the crew can use it. It makes the traveler a useful sail control instead of an abomination!
Derek

Edited by - on

nate
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 12:35:53

Thanks guys,
I appreciate all the input. The advice about my boat being a "trainer" is very good as we plan to only have the boat for 6-7 more years and then move up during my wife's final assignment. The thing I have to deal with is that since I have a spouse in the Air Force we are rather nomadic and our sailing grounds change every 3-4 years. (example: We are moving to Maryland in May!)
So the concensus seems to be a 155% is the way to go. I agree, better to have too much sail than having not enough. I do also have a used 110% jib that I purchased this year and converted to fit the CDI..guess I could use that until my wife recovers from the shock of buying a new 155% and lets get a second headsail.
Is moving the traveler to a mid-boom configuration class legal? I would like to race with a fleet if the chance ever arose.
I have a wisker pole and am getting used to using it. I have a spin set-up but it is an asym cruising chute, regardless I usually race "cruising class"
I have single line reefing, a 3-1 outhaul, Lewmar 16st's and all lines led aft to clutches on the cabin top.

So....sounds like I need a Tuff-luff, a new laminate headsail and butt loads of practice!
Where should I start looking for the headsail and what is an average cost for a 155% genoa? Thanks again.....

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 12:47:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">For a number of reasons, my spouse won't let me sell the C25 and buy a S2 7.9...a boat I think would still be fine to trailer and really fun to sail. So I gotta "dance with the girl I brung" for a few more years.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Your wife shows good judgment, Nate. The tall rig C-25 can regularly beat the S2 7.9 without handicap. The standard rig C-25 can beat it regularly in strong winds, but you'll have to work a little harder in moderate winds. It's more satisfying to beat more highly touted boats with a "mom and pop" boat. The racing ability of the C-25 is not widely reknowned because not many serious racers sail them, but, if they are well prepared and sailed, their competitiveness is amazing.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Should I ditch my furler and consider a Tuff-luff even though we will still cruise sometimes or maybe switch to a Harken split-drum furler with more performance features than my CDI? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It depends on how serious you are about racing. Like Gary, my sails are hanked on. The best arrangement is the type of headfoil that lets you raise a different sail before you lower the current sail, but they are expensive, and you really don't need them very often. On the occasions when you need them, they're great.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have a brand new full batten main from Ullman but an older 155% genoa. If I was going to invest in one GOOD headsail should I consider a 130% genoa even though I have the shorter standard rig?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If I were you, I would buy a new 155% genoa and sell the old roller furling genoa. With the proceeds from the sale, I would buy a used 110% jib. The 155 will be good for light to moderate winds throughout most of the racing season, and the 110 will be good in the stronger spring and fall winds. On most inland lakes, a 155 will be the most useful for the largest percentage of the sailing season.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have a balanced rudder and a freshly painted bottom (VC17)
What other things I should look at for performance.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A fresh, smooth coat of VC17 will do more for your boats performance than anything else you can do. Before each race, get in the water and scrub the bottom clean with a nylon or plastic scrubber. That will keep silt and algae from accumulating on ther bottom during the summer. (Try not to let others see you scrubbing your bottom. It might give them ideas.

)
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What books on racing have others found to be helpful?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I like Dennis Conner's "Sail Like A Champion." I wrote an article on racing that thoroughly discusses light air sailing, as well as other racing tips that I think are helpful. It can be downloaded at http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~rwahlfel/RacingtoWin00.htm

After each race, analyze your performance. Identify the points during the race where you lost ground. Then figure out why you lost ground at those points. Each time you go through that process you will learn how to avoid mistakes. I try not to let the others beat me because of my mistakes. I prefer that they let me beat them by their mistakes.

If you sail mistake-free races in a well-prepped boat, you'll be hard to beat.

Edited by - on

nate
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 13:34:12

Steve,
Thanks for the advice....I have your paper and reread it yesterday. Lots of great advice and tactics...thanks for taking the time to put that together.
Regarding the headsail, Catalina Direct offers 155% genoas in both Dacron and laminate from Ullman. In your opinion, is the laminate sail worth the added expense for club/PHRF racing?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2003 : 15:05:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...is the laminate sail worth the added expense for club/PHRF racing?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
For club racing, dacron sails are virtually the equal of a laminated jib in moderate windstrengths. Laminated jibs are better in strong winds and in light air.

Dacron sails stretch more in strong winds. When the wind puffs, the dacron sailcloth stretches and develops a deeper pocket, which causes the boat to heel more. To counteract the deepening pocket of the jib, you have to increase the tension on the jibsheet until the puff subsides. Laminated sails don't stretch much. In strong wind puffs, they maintain their shape better. Also, laminated sails are lighter in weight than dacron sails. Therefore, laminated sails put less weight aloft than dacron sails, and their reduced weight helps keep the boat from heeling.

In light air, because of their less weight, the wind can lift laminated sails more easily than dacron sails, and hold them in the shape that drives the boat. When dacron sails are hanging limp, boats with laminated sails will continue to ghost along.

In strong winds and light air, dacron sails will be at a disadvantage, but if you concentrate on sail trimming and use other techniques, you can reduce the disadvantage. You can race very successfully with dacron sails.

Laminated sails are indisputably more efficient than dacron sails, but whether they are worth the cost and effort depends on your personal considerations. They are becoming increasingly durable, which makes them more practical.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:18:38

Nate,

I've been club raceing against a Santa Cruz 28, a Lazer 28, C&C 30's, Siedelman 25's, etc, all very fast racer/cruisers and have done well against them in my tall rig, wing keel. You can spend a lot of money equiping your boat to win. In my opinion sails in good condition which allow a wide wind range, a clean bottom, good crew of not more than two, a thorough knowledge of the racing rules, some knowledge of tactics, and a thorough understanding of sail trim, will go a long way to placing well with your PHRF rating. Sail your boat as fast as you and your crew can using the assets available and you can place well against most boats in your size range. One thing you should be aware of though. Racers tend to disregard severe weather conditions that cruisers and daysailers would normally head home in. It is very hard on your boat, equipment, and sometimes your crew. It will definately shorten the life of any new equipment you buy and probably add a few stress cracks in your gelcoat. After 15 years of club racing twice a week, I'm going cruising.

Al
GALLIVANT
C25T 5801

Edited by - on

roomatthemark
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 09:20:30

Look for a used J-24 head sail. Those guys buy new sails very often. A J-24 155 is a good mid-range sail for a Catalina 25 with a long foot and short head. they are powerful and don't heal the boat much. The biggest bouns is the cost. J-24 guys aren't too proud of their used sails. The hardcore ones consider anything over two years old a rag.
When we race, we have a driver, main trimmer, head sail trimmer and one fore deck. In heavy breeze we sheet the vang hard and ease the main in the puffs. The traveler is as useless as (fill in blank) The main trimmer is free to go below on down wind legs to get beer for the captain.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 10:24:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roomatthemark
 Look for a used J-24 head sail. Those guys buy new sails very often. A J-24 155 is a good mid-range sail for a Catalina 25 with a long foot and short head. they are powerful and don't heal the boat much. The biggest bouns is the cost. J-24 guys aren't too proud of their used sails. The hardcore ones consider anything over two years old a rag.
When we race, we have a driver, main trimmer, head sail trimmer and one fore deck. In heavy breeze we sheet the vang hard and ease the main in the puffs. The traveler is as useless as (fill in blank) The main trimmer is free to go below on down wind legs to get beer for the captain.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yup!
I was given two J-24 headsails. A 155 that works as a 135 and a 110 that works as an 80. That left him with three other sets.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 10:32:50

Due to a work schedule change I, too, may get into racing next season. I am currently assembling those items I will need for racing, but I'm not going to get rid of my furler because it has become rather indispensable to this singlehanded sailor.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 12:09:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Look for a used J-24 head sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The J-24 has a fractional rig. The C-25 has a masthead rig. The sails aren't even close in size. You could fly a J-24 sail on a
C-25, but a dacron 155 that is made to fit a C-25 would be much faster.

Edited by - on

mtiffee
1st Mate

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USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:26:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Look for a used J-24 head sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The sails aren't even close in size.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What do you define as "close"?

Catalina 25: I=29.00 J=10.50
J24: I=26.66 J=9.55

That's only 2.3 feet difference on the I and less than a foot on the J.

I own both a J/24 and Catalina 25 and have used my J sails on my C-25 and they're pretty close. But you are correct that a headsail designed for a C-25 will certainly out perform a J/24 sail, but for a more casual cost saving sailer, a J/24 sail will work quite well especially in heavy winds.

Championship Tactics by Gary Jobson is good reading.

Edited by - mtiffee on 11/13/2003 14:28:50

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 14:38:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mtiffee
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Look for a used J-24 head sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The sails aren't even close in size.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What do you define as "close"?

Catalina 25: I=29.00 J=10.50
J24: I=26.66 J=9.55

That's only 2.3 feet difference on the I and less than a foot on the J.

I own both a J/24 and Catalina 25 and have used my J sails on my C-25 and they're pretty close. But you are correct that a headsail designed for a C-25 will certainly out perform a J/24 sail, but for a more casual cost saving sailer, a J/24 sail will work quite well especially in heavy winds. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I love my quasi 135 and 80. Only large genoas have a full hoist anyway. The j150 looks great as a 135, hoist about right, the J110 looks great as an 80, hoist about right. The clew angles are lower but that is just power down low, not a bad thing.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 16:27:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What do you define as "close"? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The difference in dimensions amounts to a lot of sail area. Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that the difference is approximately the same as the difference between a 130 and a 155. (I haven't calculated the area. It might not be quite that much.) How would you like to be racing in moderate to light air with a 130 or 140% headsail when your opponent has a 155? You're letting your opponent have a more powerful "motor" than you.

The J24 sails are fine for general sailing, but Nate wants to be competitive, and he said he is willing to buy one good headsail. To be competitive, his biggest, light to moderate air sail has to afford him as much sail area as possible. He can't concede that much sail area to his opponents and remain competitive. For heavier winds, either a used C-25 sail or the J24s smaller sails can be used. But the J24 sail would not serve him well for his light to moderate air genoa jib.

I would estimate that I use a 155% genoa on my inland lake in about 70% of the races. You can't give up a full-sized headsail on a masthead rigged boat (which relies primarily on its headsail for its power) in 70% of the races and still be competitive.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 16:55:21

I have to agree with Steve (gee, it's getting to be a habit!). The headsail on the C25 really IS the power plant and you need to carry the most headsail that you can. The 155% on TSU is cut to the last millimeter of legality! Just remember that you can't "set it and forget it" (especially on an inland lake - there are no automatic transmissions on a race boat!) A good genoa trimmer is worth his weight in gold.
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 18:47:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I have to agree with Steve (gee, it's getting to be a habit!). The headsail on the C25 really IS the power plant and you need to carry the most headsail that you can. The 155% on TSU is cut to the last millimeter of legality! Just remember that you can't "set it and forget it" (especially on an inland lake - there are no automatic transmissions on a race boat!) A good genoa trimmer is worth his weight in gold.
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A midget foredeck man is pretty handy too.
I see the 135 as the sail you go to when no one can carry the 150-55 and is going to their 110. I do not see it as the sail that you use when everyone else is flying all the cloth they have. jeez! I guess you rooky racers just operate in a two sail inventory universe. Come on up to the four sail inventory rarified air, its nice up here.

Oh and Nate, the only problem with the 7.9 is that its main is so powerful that it is hard to sail short handed. It is a great boat to race because they plane quickly and accelerate like a race horse. It is an awsome boat!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 19:32:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...the only problem with the 7.9 is that its main is so powerful that it is hard to sail short handed. It is a great boat to race because they plane quickly and accelerate like a race horse. It is an awsome boat!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If they're really that good, why are they so easy to beat?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 20:41:48

I love reading this stuff--it's almost like the parking lot at McDonalds back in 1962!

"Eddie's 409 smoked that 427 Ford over there..."

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/13/2003 20:44:24

nate
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 22:53:10

Whew...got you guys going!! Can anyone address the issue of moving the traveler and whether or not it's class legal to do so?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2003 : 23:15:16

From the C25 Design Class Rules in the Association's Constitution and Bylaws....

"H. RUNNING RIGGING

2. Travelers must remain on the transom and will be limited so that the mainsheet attachment point may not travel past the point at which the factory installed traveler bar intersected the transom. No rope or wire travelers will be permitted."

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2003 : 01:04:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I have to agree with Steve (gee, it's getting to be a habit!).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is like 4 or 5 times in the last 2 months.

The threads are more interesting when you two don't agree.

Edited by - on

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