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Suggestions for a smaller headsail

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/17/2003 : 10:49:20

When I first bought my boat, a year and a half ago, I had all intentions of adding a roller furling unit. Now I'm finding that I really like the hank-on sails and the advantages that come with it, so I'm sticking with the hank-ons. But, I would be lying if I said that I'm not just a little jealous, on those windier days, when my roller furling brethren simple roll in a little canvas and sail merrily on their way without excessive heal.

My quesion is: With respect to the foresail, what should the next size down be? 70%? 80? I? J? (or is it P? E?).

I've gotten a lot of really cool ideas from this group recently regarding hank-on foresails, like heaving to from a port tack to drop sail (which worked great yesterday), and using a snap shackel to speed up sail changes (haven't tried yet). I would really appreciate any and all suggestions about what you guys use, or would use for those windy days on the lake when a smaller jib is called for, but a storm sail might be overkill.

John Matsche
PO of 1985 Catalina 25 TR/FK #5171
CO of 1990 Capri 26 WK #97

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 11:31:05

Hi John,

Jib sails on Snickerdoodle are (from largest to smallest): 155% Drifter, 150% Genny, 110% Factory jib, 97% Blade, and Storm jib. She also has a full sized (180%) Cruising spinnaker.

Snickerdoodle is a tall rig, and I believe strongly in keeping balance in the sail plan to correct for our boat's tendency to round up into the wind when sailing on gusty days or in strong breezes. This means that I tend to carry a bigger jib than a lot of skippers and reef the main sail sooner than most. In fact, the main has a flattening reef that I tuck in at only about 11 or 12 knots of breeze. And, I'll have the first full reef in at about 15 knots of breeze......still carrying the 150. I've found that a single full reef and the 150 will have just about a neutral feel on the tiller to about 20 knots of wind. That's where I'll shift down to either the 110 or the blade. 110 for reaching and running and blade for close hauled. Again, this combination has nearly a neutral feel on the tiller to about 26 or 27 knots of wind - where I generally tuck in the second reef. The storm jib gets hauled up in winds over 30 and I'll sail "bald headed" (double reefed main and no jib) if the wind is above 35 or so.

If you're out in more than 40 knots of breeze, it's probably because you got caught out. I've done this several times, and wished I had a storm trisail to hoist instead of the double reefed main. I've only been out in winds exceeding 50 knots once. We ended up taking all the sail off the boat and sailing bare poles at 5.5 kts boatspeed, while reaching downwind. What a day!! Good thing we had plenty of fetch to work with. The outboard was of no use in those waves.

So, John, you can see my inclination to work the sails by reefing the main sail first and shifting to a smaller jib second. BTW: all of Snickerdoodle's halyards and reefing lines are lead aft so there's less "tapdancing" around on the cabin top and foredeck in strong breezes. AND, I practiced tucking in and shaking out the reefs on several nice 8 to 12 knot days when I first launched Snickerdoodle in April 1985. That's why I lead all the lines aft. It was just too slow to tuck in the reefs with the original jiffy reefing system that came from the factory......not to mention dangerous for the person trying to hang onto the mast while balancing on the cabin top - pulling and cleating reefing lines.

To answer your specific question regarding the dimensions for a 70% jib, I'd think somewhere around 7' or 7.5' on the foot and luff length around 25' or so. The leach length would be determined by whether you want a higher clew corner. Two reasons for the higher clew are (1) better visibility forward; and (2) you could use the same jib sheet lead block position as you use for the 110% jib.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 13:08:53

Bill:

Thanks for that excellent reply. A LOT of good info. I hate to ask this and prove to the group my ignorance, but: What's a blade?

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 15:37:06

John, a blade is a narrower sail than the regular factory 110. I'm not sure of the percentage but its called a blade because that is what it looks like infront of the mast. By the way the 110 I have also has a set of reef points in it. Got the boat from someone that had it on San Francisco Bay. I have never used these reef points but would like to try it and see how they work.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 16:16:01

By the way the 110 I have also has a set of reef points in it. Got the boat from someone that had it on San Francisco Bay. I have never used these reef points but would like to try it and see how they work. - Matt

Hi Matt,

How do you reef a hanked-on headsail? Where are the reef points, and what do they look like? Can a sail loft add reef points to a headsail that was made without them?

This is new to me ... I'd like to know how it works ... thanks!

Edited by - on

cvwall
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 16:40:51

A good loft can add reef points to a standard jib, but they'll have to do a little finagling with the luff rope at the reef tack cringle. I had such a headsail on my old boat. To reef, you attach the reef tack cringle to the tack fitting, move the sheets to the reef clew (snap shackles or a sheet-and-toggle help here), roll and loosly tie the foot with the points, hoist the jib and away you go.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 17:42:34

To me one of the questions you need to ask yourself is, "What is the nature of my sailing?" I mainly day sail and am planning on a little racing. I often sail with inexperienced crew, so I decided to install a roller furler, which very easily reduces sail, and still maintains speed, making for a much more comfortable sail. If I ever get serious about racing, I would probably remove the roller furler for races and use hank on sails, starting with 155 mylar/kevlar, 135, 110, 80 storm jib. That's what the boat came with and from sail changing experience is probably good for a c25. When I crewed on an Ensign we changed head sails only on the downwind legs when we had the chute flying. That way its fairly easy, but you need people to fly the spinniker and do the sail change.

Good luck on your decision, Let us what you do and how it works out.

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 19:12:28

Matt has got it pretty close.

A Blade Jib is generally smaller than 100%, but with a full hoist on the luff. My blade's luff is the same length as my 150 genny's luff. However, my blade is a 97%. So, the sail essentially fills the forward triangle between deck/forestay/& mast. The real advantage to the blade is that while reducing total sail area for less heeling, the full luff will lift to weather (close hauled sailing) almost as well as the genny. So, it's a nice sail for tacking upwind on breezy days.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 19:20:08

Hey Buzz,

I used to crew on a J24 that had a 115% jib that had reef points that would take it down to around 95%. There was a reefing cringle on the sail's luff and leach about 30" up from the tack and clew corners respectively. To reef, someone had to go forward on the foredeck. The jib halyard was then slacked off till the reef cringle on the luff could be affixed to the ramshorn on the stem fitting. Then, the jib sheets (secured with a snapshackle) were moved up to the reef cringle on the leach. Tension was taken up on the halyard while the sheets were being moved; and the sail could then be sheeted in.

Of course, we had to move the jib sheet lead blocks forward. And, there were reef gaskets that allowed us to tie up the reefed bottom of the sail.

All in all, I never liked the set up much. I felt that it was too slow compared to simply changing to a different sail. But it was the other guy's boat and he liked it. So, I guess that is all that really mattered.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 20:57:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When I first bought my boat, a year and a half ago, I had all intentions of adding a roller furling unit. Now I'm finding that I really like the hank-on sails and the advantages that come with it, so I'm sticking with the hank-ons. But, I would be lying if I said that I'm not just a little jealous, on those windier days, when my roller furling brethren simple roll in a little canvas and sail merrily on their way without excessive heal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't see why you can't have a furler and have performance, too!

I'm toying with the idea of racing next season and I have a furler which I don't want to remove since its become somewhat indispensible (read "gift from the sailing gods") to this singlehanded sailor, but racewise, I don't want to be at a disadvantage either. Another reason I don't want to lose the furling, is that even if I did race next year, the actual time racing would be a very small fraction of what I spend singlehanded cruising. I'm talk'in a very small fraction.

The solution I'm considering is using the double grooved foil on my Harken furler similar to a racing foil. So instead of roller reefing my 140 genoa and losing performance, I would simply run a 110 or 155 up the foil, and bring down the 140.

Since I wouldn't use either the 110 or 155 for furling, I could have the clews cut closer to the deck for maximum sail area. This would allow me to have my cake(furler) and eat(race)it, too!

For more information concerning racing with a furler, check out this link.

[url="http://www.harken.com/furling/qa-race.php"]Racing with Furling[/url]

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2003 : 21:56:53

Don

Not sure which PHRF area standards are used on the the Great Sacandaga Lake, but I get a 6 second benefit for having a roller furler. So am I penalized using it? Don't think so, and when the wind pipes up, and roll in some sail, I've found I still maintain hull speed plus. So at least to start with I plan to race with my cdi furler.

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2003 : 08:24:56

Thanks for all the great responses.

Quite honestly, I haven't ruled out a roller furling sometime in the future for the advantages described above by the 2 Dons. That Harken link was pretty convincing.

My reasons for staying with the hank-ons for now has a lot to do with simplicty and cost. And as goofy as it sounds, I really enjoy going forward and hoisting the darn thing!

Also, that reefing jib, mentioned earlier, might be a good alternative to buying a smaller sail. If you ever feel the need to post a picture of one, I'd sure love to see it!

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2003 : 09:40:46

A Beneteau we sailed this Fall had padding (strips) placed along the luff of its roller furling jib. They were there to help maintain an efficient sail shape as the sail was pulled in.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2003 : 10:58:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Beneteau we sailed this Fall had padding (strips) placed along the luff of its roller furling jib. They were there to help maintain an efficient sail shape as the sail was pulled in.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is referred to as a "foam luff".

Edited by - on

Chip Hunt
Navigator

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120 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2003 : 23:13:50

i know that having a hanked-on headsail does have some advantages, but my roller furler made my sailing life SO much simpler, easier, and safer, especially when i sail single-handed. but, like someone above said, it all boils down to the type of sailing you plan on doing.

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2003 : 14:03:31

One of the problems I have with a RF genny or jib is when it comes time for the storm jib... I have seen advertised storm jibs for RF setups, and I wonder if anyone has one, and how well it works. The other alternative is, I suppose, to install a removable headstay for the storm jib that can be snapshackled to a padeye on the deck just behing the furling foil. Furl the headsail, snap the stay in pace and raise the storm jib. Problem is, the luff would sit in the wind shadow of the rolled-up furling headsail.

Anyone have a solution to this? I really want to make it easier to reduce sail on "Wood Duck" so she can handle 30-35 knots on occasion when the wind pipes up and we need to get home from a foreign port.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2003 : 14:19:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by deastburn
 One of the problems I have with a RF genny or jib is when it comes time for the storm jib... I have seen advertised storm jibs for RF setups, and I wonder if anyone has one, and how well it works.Anyone have a solution to this? I really want to make it easier to reduce sail on "Wood Duck" so she can handle 30-35 knots on occasion when the wind pipes up and we need to get home from a foreign port.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have seen quicktime movies and videos of the "sleeve" genre. It looks ike a simple grommet kit and some canvas would be easy to use to fabricate a solution. Take a piece of hemmed canvas as long as the luff of the storm sail. 12"-18" wide should be about right for width. Place a row of grommets down each side of the canvas so they match up with the hanks on the storm sail. Wrap the canvas around the furled sail and hank on through both grommets... continue.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/19/2003 14:19:48

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