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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing to Wing Costs & Time

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cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/20/2003 : 08:28:15

Our swing to wing conversion is complete! Moonglade is not back in the water yet. Maybe another week. We are having some motor work done on our Yamaha 9.9. After she is in the water I will be able to respond to the diffeneces in sailing qualities.

Costs:
Keel kit from Catalina Direct 1,810
Shipping to Largo Florida 200
Boatyard charges 1,710
Epoxy to fair keel to hull joint 115
Misc. brushes, rollers, sandpaer 110

Total 3,945

I also spent 325 on barrier coat and about 175 on bottom paint. I did not include those above as I felt I would have done that even I had not done the conversion. I also had some expenses driving to Largo from Panama City to pick up the keel, but it was kind of a vacation.

Time:
Helping at the boatyard with templating,
drilling holes, setting keel (they would
probably wished I hadn't helped) 4 hrs.
Fairing keel to hull joint 6 hrs.
Sanding and paint prep 20 hrs.
Painting (barrier coat and bottom) 8 hrs.
Trailer modification 6 hrs.

Some of this time could have been reduced if I had been more experienced with what I was doing. I also had to fit time into a busy business schedule which meant alot of set up time.

Conclusions:

It is too early to tell what the bottom line is because how she sails is of course the most important issue. However, I am very happy with how the conversion has gone. I had planned 3 weeks and $ 5,000. Actual was 3 months and $4,000. Some of what took longer was our fault. It took longer than expected for the keel to get here, and longer to get the boatyard started. Once they started the boatyard was very quick. I feel I got an incredible deal from the boatyard. They mostly work on big motor boats (all the local Coast Gaurd work) and had no experience with sailboat keels. They are fiberglass experts so I had a comfort level. I also agreed to an open ended cost plus arrangement which I use in my construction business with my clients which usually saves the customer money and the contractor doesn't lose money. Removing the keel, sandblasting the trunk, drilling the holes, setting the keel, and glassing the joint took 2 men about 10 hrs. I can't imagine trying to do that work myself for the approximatley $900 I paid for it. I spent quite a bit of time fairing the joint because I wanted it smooth and I am not worth a crap when it comes to epoxy work. My 50 year old bones don't do well laying under a boat working over my head.

All in all I am very pleased, feel I got an exceptional job and deal from the boatyard, feel the job went better and cost less and took longer than I had expected. Can't wait to see how it feels to have a dry bilge and how Moonglade will sail with the wing.

BTW we recently were fortunate enough to tour the Catalina factory in Largo Florida. After the tour we met Frank Butler. I know he designed the Catalina 30 don't know if he designed the 25, although he has designed many boats. Anyway I told him we had converted to wing and his comments were "good idea but remember she won't point quite as well and sail her flat for better performance"

I am posting pictures on another post because I don't know if there is a limit to how long these threads can be?

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/now wk

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2003 : 16:31:10

Chris, Frank Butler is correct about how the boat will preform with the wing. We had a 79 SK converted to a WK in 1988 and the boat did not point as well. As a matter of fact it was reduce by 10 degrees. I also required it to be sailed flatter. For example, we sail a 38.5 mile river race every year and the winds normally are 3-5 knots on a run at the start swinging to a reach about half way 10-15 knots. Three years ago we won our class averaging a little over four knots with my bother-in-law, who is 6'2" and tops out at 220lbs. The last two years he was not able to come sail so it was just my son and I. The net result was a .5 knot reduction in average speed for the 38.5 miles and a fourth place finish. Everytime we go to the Generals house I blame him for the poor performance the last two years. So like the C250 flatter is better. The C25 WK will have no problem with higher winds and lots of sail. We used our 150 in all the races, never reefed the main and have had no problem on a reach with winds at 18-20K with gust to 25K. She will hussle along pretty good at 35-40 degrees of heel no problem. My son likes to put the gunnels in the water, but the General has threatened to jump overboard and swim to shore if I don't make him stop. The problem is she was an Arkansas swiming and diving champion, in her younger days, and probable would. The thing I liked best about the wing is I did not have to mess with that cable and worry about the maintenance on it yearly.
I know once you get use to the slight differences you are going to wonder why you did not convert before. Good luck and enjoy your new sailing adventure.

Edited by - on

allencl
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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2003 : 23:04:39

Chris,

Marvelous job- can't wait to hear your sailing impressions. Thanks for the post.

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 10:54:10

Chris, I'm very impressed with what you've done. On the other hand, for four grand, I think I would sell my boat and buy something a little larger with a fixed keel. But that's just me.

Nice work.

Brooke

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 11:36:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 Chris, I'm very impressed with what you've done. On the other hand, for four grand, I think I would sell my boat and buy something a little larger with a fixed keel. But that's just me.

Nice work.

Brooke
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's the same conclusion I came to when I was considering the swing-to-wing conversion on "Quiet Time I" (#1205) last year. The blue-book value on the boat is only $5000, and I was afraid that since the boat is a Mk. I, I would never be able to recover the cost of the keel conversion. Of course I lucked out, finding a Mk. IV in excellent condition for only $6500, although I had to drive 6100 miles to get the boat and bring her home. Now that I have the new boat, a Mk. IV WK/TR, I am ever so glad I didn't sink $4000 into the keel conversion on the old boat.

If someone had a Mk. III SK ('86-'87 model years), in nice condition, it would be different. The Mk. III has most of the late-model Catalina 25 features (except the lowered cabin floor), which makes it a much better candidate for the conversion than my old Mk. I boat.

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cch
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202 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 19:15:50

I understand the thoughts about selling the boat and buying another but I have a couple of things I had to consider.

Moonglade was to the point of taking on water at an alarming rate. It had gotten to the point where the boat was not worth much at all. I was faced with dumping 4 or 5 grand into a boat that would only be worth that when finished or trying to sell a boat I could get very little for and try to buy another.

When looking at boats it is hard to find one better suited to our needs than the Catalina 25. We dock Moonglade at our house but 3 feet is the very best depth we have at low tide. Anything that draws less than 3 feet is usaully a small boat, a very tender boat or a newer high tech (and expensive) boat. At this time in our lives a large boat investment wouldn't work. I feel Moonglade is now in excellent condition and anticipate several years of great sailing. And I know the condition of the boat!

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2003 : 21:07:49

Chris, that makes a lot of sense. I still think I would have put a thousand into fixing the C25, sell it, add four thousand. and buy a C27. There are legions of good C27s with 4' draft for ten grand or less.

Nevertheless, I admire you for your loyalty to your Good Old Boat!

Brooke

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2003 : 10:32:30

Last time I looked around here on the west coast, well-equipped wings in good condition with a trailer were going for at least $10K - $12K (or lots more). Larry got a tremendous buy on the one he found. Probably paid less than the average price for a west coast swing keel with a trailer.

IMHO follows... If you have a nice swinger... and add $3,000 for the wing, you're still doing ok. You may not get all your money out of it, but I don't think you'll be taking a bath either, especially if you already have your boat fixed up and equipped the way you want her.

Recognizing that price of wing keels in the rest of the country may differ from out here.

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Randall
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123 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2003 : 19:40:23

Two thoughts from a foolish old spendthrift:

If making or saving money on our boats was the real issue, we'd all be boatless. We sail for the sheer joy we derive from being in, on and around our boats, or just reading the West Marine catalog and dreaming. We dote on our pet projects because they give us pleasure.

I have projects around my place (automotive & nautical) that I will probably never finish, and if I ever do, I'll lose my rear on 'em if I try to sell them. Doesn't matter. I enjoy working on them. Or just thinking about someday working on them. Using my hand and power tools on a household project is a chore, a necessary evil, a distractor from important things. Using them to refurbish my poor tired old '79 swinger is pure joy.

My second thought (even more abstruse & rambling) is the result of the first book I ever read about sailing, the book that truly changed my life. Back in '67, I was skipping high school and hanging out at the Cocoa public library so I could learn about things that actually interested me. I spotted a book entitled "Sea Gypsy" in the non-fiction stack & picked it out. Author Peter Tangvald spun a great tale of his adventures sailing around the world in an engineless wooden sloop, and I became hooked for life. I wanted nothing more than to be a tramp sailor wandering the globe. 35 years later, I've worked my way up to owning a Cat 25 that my wife, daughter and I sail on a protected Texas lake. But the dream is still there, and when I work on "Kite", I fancy that I'm building skills I'll need to 'round the Horn someday.

Anyway, back to my second point: Peter Tangvald wrote passionately of his belief that all sailing vessels, (even seemingly identical production boats), are living things with their own personalities. By taking on any boat as a project, you are saving a living thing which will in return bring joy into your life. I don't know if all that's true, but if so, "Kite" will be eternally devoted to me if/when I finish restoring her.

Ford built millions of Model A's & T's, and hundreds of thousands of Mach One Mustangs. How many of them have you seen around lately? Most are long gone, and those that survive are beautiful rarities. Only a few thousand Cat 25s were ever built and they all deserve to be saved from extinction. Find a boat and adopt it-- you are doing a worthwhile thing.

You done good, Chris! You not only saved a fine boat, you hopped it up in the process. You may never get all your money back from your project, but you have done a good deed and you have good memories and new skills as a result. Enjoy your new friend.

Randall
'79 TR/SK dinette #1459 "Kite"

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2003 : 20:36:13

Two thoughts from a foolish old spendthrift: .... - Randall

Well said, Randall ... I wholeheartedly agree! (With your two points, that is

)

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cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2003 : 21:36:35

Thanks Randall,

I hope you enjoy your work on Kite as much as I enjoy mine on Moongalde. It sounds as though you do. Maybe even more so.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/24/2003 : 21:49:18

Indeed Randall... that was well put.
You've hit the proverbial nail on the head.

I have a brass placard in my boat with the famous
quotation from "Wind in the Willows"

"There is nothing
absolutely nothing
half as much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2003 : 09:23:49

Hi Randall, at seventy three I've done everything that I've ever wanted to do on a sailboat except sail it around the world. Your discourse is tempting.

Thanks

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

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