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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/11/2003 : 17:10:10

Hey guys & gals!
I'm contemplating replacing the halyards on "TSU" with all line instaead of wire-to-line. Does anyone know what is the max diameter line that the wire-to-line sheaves will accomodate.? I plan to use hi-tech stuff so hope that I don't have to replace the sheaves.
Derek

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 18:10:41

The wire sheaves are very narrow and sharp. Unless your new halyards fit perfectly, they would wear through in no time. New sheaves are easy to install.

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 18:38:47

WOW! A diehard racer is contemplating adding additional windage up the mast.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 18:56:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mark Loyacano
 The wire sheaves are very narrow and sharp. Unless your new halyards fit perfectly, they would wear through in no time. New sheaves are easy to install.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I bought hi tech 1/4" halyards and have not put them on yet. I do not know if I will get around to internalizing them this winter ot not. They should work fine as externals and I can move them in any tme and free up two sheeves for other halyards. I am using new sheaves but I don't think they are anything other than replacements for the old ones. Like Mark said it is easy to replace them, I hope the 1/4" fits ok.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 20:03:19

Bryan - you have it backwards :) I'm removing weight from uploft! Hi-tech line weighs less than wire...losing 1lb from the masthead is equivalent to putting an extra 50 lb on the rail.
Derek

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 20:11:05

I'd think that 3/16" might work in the sheaves... why not replace the original sheaves (fairly heavy on mine) with all-acetal and save a few more ounces?

Are you going to splice some bigger tails on the halyards so you can handle them easily?

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 20:38:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Bryan - you have it backwards :) I'm removing weight from uploft! Hi-tech line weighs less than wire...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What is the bigger evil, the weight aloft or the windage? I was told external wire halyards were used to reduce windage more than weight. (Of course that was back when the high tech lines weren’t around yet)

The wire is what, about a 1/8" thick and the smallest line that you can use comfortably is 5/16". That is 21/2 times bigger than the wire, times the length of the mast, times 2 halyards isn’t that a lot of extra windage?

IMHO if you are going through the trouble of changing the halyards to remove the weight aloft why don't you convert to internal halyards then both evils are taken care of?

Every 1/100th of a second still counts right

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 21:20:44

You guys are funny.......having raced enough in the last thirty something years to claim some credibility I will admit that the above is all valid.

Somehow though, I always remember the low budget guys that, except for a decent suit of sails just got by with leftovers and "on sale" outdated gear, and a minimum of it at that.

But they focused, and did not make mistakes. And they usually blew our/my socks off....... All it took on our/my part was one bad tack, or one fouled chute......Sometimes we/I got lucky though.....

Oscar

Lady Kay 250 WB #618
Sunrise on the Neuse River...

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2003 : 23:27:38

Bryan - that's an interesting thought. However, my "experts" tell me that weight is more deleterious than windage and remember, we don't sail particularly streamlined boats!

Clam - I'll have to splice a tail on the halyards so that they will hold in the clutches.
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 07:29:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Bryan - that's an interesting thought. However, my "experts" tell me that weight is more deleterious than windage and remember, we don't sail particularly streamlined boats!

Clam - I'll have to splice a tail on the halyards so that they will hold in the clutches.
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
NOT SO! I bought the new spinlok XAS clutches and they hold 1/4" with no problem. I put a new triple on port and a new single to starboard, (along with the old double). With cabintop winches, I am not expecting any handling issues. A 1/4" tail with no real tension on it should not be a problem.

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 10:21:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">we don't sail particularly streamlined boats! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Okay, this is true! I would be interest in knowing how you are going to splice a tail on the halyard and what part of the halyard does the splice go.

Edited by - on

CatalinaGuy
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 14:42:56

Why not run your halyards internally? You would replace your 4 wire sheaves and spacer with two line sheaves. Probably the same weight, maybe even lighter, then run spectra core line internally to reduce windage. The exit blocks are only 6" off the deck so no weight issue there.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 15:40:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CatalinaGuy
 Why not run your halyards internally? You would replace your 4 wire sheaves and spacer with two line sheaves. Probably the same weight, maybe even lighter, then run spectra core line internally to reduce windage. The exit blocks are only 6" off the deck so no weight issue there.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think an external spinnaker halyard with internal head and main halyards is tacky. I would rather stick with the current sheeves and run three halyards and a topping lift internal.

This is an edit
Addendum:
I had not responded to the 6" deal. I have seen a lot of our boats rigged that way and I consider it unsafe. The trip line created by that exit hieght is destined to cause an accident someday. I ABSOLUTELY will run mine as Leon has suggested. I will probably not mount the cam cleats as a priority but my exits will be around 6' not six inches and run to my halyard plate. These will simply be slots, not turning blocks. It may not be much difference but, it will be some, and it is a place where I want lines as close to the deck as possible!

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 12/12/2003 17:13:40

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 15:45:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... run your halyards internally... The exit blocks are only 6" off the deck ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just a quick thought about converting to internal halyards. Sometimes, even with internal halyards lead aft, you may wish you could operate a halyard or other mast control line while standing at the mast.

When I converted to internal lead aft, I installed the halyard exit plates on the sides of the mast about 4-1/2' and 6' above the deck. (They need to be staggered, and not near the gooseneck.) I then added a camcleat on each side of the mast down around knee height.
This allows me to tug on, and even temporarily cleat off, a line while standing by the mast. (While wrestling with a sticky luff slug, batten caught under stays, or freeing a headsail fouled on deck hardware for instance.) Then when I go back to the cockpit, I can release the line from the camcleat on the mast just by tugging on it. The non-vertical angle from the exit plates to the mast base turning blocks pulls the line out of the camcleat.

-- Leon Sisson

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 18:52:54

Derek: I agree with Mark--my wire sheaves were narrow, chipped, and would have probably jammed with even a 1/4" line if it had been heavily tensioned, due to the vertical walls of the groove. CD supposedly has new sheaves that are the correct size (finally)--if not, Belpat on Long Island (I think we have it recorded on the association site) makes precisely the right size custom for us--for a song. CD's are supposed to have bearings--Belpat's do not.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 19:03:22

Derek,
You could use 1/8" Spectron 12 - it's rated at 1800 lb WL. That would definitely fit the sheaves. The only down side is it doesn't grip a cleat or hold a knot, so you'd have to add a cover to the handling end of it and it's a bit thin for gripping.

I don't know why, but I used it for a topping lift (run internally like a halyard) and covered the cockpit end of it. Guess I just wanted to play with a little high-tech cordage.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2003 : 22:27:47

John - that's something like I was planning!

I do have to find someone capable of adding a splice/tail/cover to make it fit my clutches. However, I'm racing tomorrow and I'll be able to pick the expert's brains (i.e. the J-22 guys!)

Derek

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2003 : 09:50:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Hey guys & gals!
I'm contemplating replacing the halyards on "TSU" with all line instaead of wire-to-line. Does anyone know what is the max diameter line that the wire-to-line sheaves will accomodate.? I plan to use hi-tech stuff so hope that I don't have to replace the sheaves.
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I switched over to all rope halyards some time ago, I used the existing wire sheaves that were already on the mast. I reused the wire sheaves because they performed better than the somewhat inadequate small diameter 1/4" replacement sheaves that I purchased from CD (although I hear they are using a better fitting sheave now).

Before deciding to use the existing sheaves, I tested them (with the mast down) by threading the new 5/16" halyards through the sheaves and visually checking them while putting the halyards under strain. My existing wire sheaves have a "V" shaped groove opening and at the bottom of the "V" is a slot for the small diameter wire rope. The new rope halyard rides in this "V" similar to the way an automotive "V" belt rides on a pulley. My concerns while testing were to see if the new halyard became wedged/stuck in the "V" shaped groove or became deformed when put under strain by the mast winch, and I found in both cases that it didn't.

Keep in mind that I still have external halyards which means that the halyards only make a 90 degree directional change on each sheave(fore and aft). Performance may be different on internal halyards which make a 180 degree directional change on each sheave, but I seriously doubt that even then it would be an issue.

Since you sail year round, I'm assuming you would like to make the swap to all rope without lowering your mast so here's what I would do if I were you. I would splice on the new halyard, run it up through the masthead, put it under strain with a winch, then ease off the strain. After the strain is relieved carefully pull on the halyard to see if you can detect if it is getting wedged in the sheave. If it is not, then I would say use it and periodically check the last foot or so of the halyard(headboard end) to see if there is any chafe.

PS: If your current wire rope halyayds have thimbles like mine did then you will have to remove them before splicing on the new ones because these thimbles won't fit through the masthead.

Oh, by the way...I still have the new, never used original CD replacement sheaves in my parts box if anyone wants them for free, but I seriously recommend getting either the Belpat sheaves or the newer CD sheaves even though I've never seen either one.

Edited by - on

Carl B.
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2003 : 13:22:38

"I do have to find someone capable of adding a splice/tail/cover to make it fit my clutches." You can contact the fine people at www.Layline.com.
I'm thanking of do the same as you are but going internally with the cordage.

Leon, or anybody else, Is there any way you can post some pictures of your modification?

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2003 : 23:00:50

Derek,
I used the sta-set t900 5/16 specta core halyards and found a great deal at the sailnet coordage sale. I replaced by badly deteriorated sheeves with those at Catalina Direct. They seem to fit perfectly with no apparent chaffing. There is a difference between the mast head of my tall rig and the standard rig. the only thing I may have done differently is have a halyard splice put in. While I doubt that it matters much considering the load capacity of this line they do warn that a knot creates a weakness. The tradeoff is that the line can easily be rotated end for end each season to even out wear patterns.

Ray Clift
Buzz, 1361 TR/SK
Oregon

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 11:55:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I do have to find someone capable of adding a splice/tail/cover to make it fit my clutches...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Seems your "tail" is going to be about half the overall length of the halyard... Why not just run 5/16ths the whole way, eliminating the splices? That means new sheaves, but have you looked at yours up close recently? If original, they may have deteriorated.

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rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 13:48:30

Dave, you are sure right about the deteriorating sheeves. I thought mine were just a bit chipped on the outside until I took them off and the center hole had been totally broken out so the turning point of the sheeve was at least 3/4 of an inch off center. I'm amazed the whole thing didn't lock up before I replaced it.

Ray Clift
Buzz 1361

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 15:29:44

Don L. - thanks for that info. regarding the sheaves - I plan to use the old ones initially - if the halyards do jam then I'll replace them. I also intend to swap the halyards with the mast up!
Dave - I have almost brand new sheaves. I also checked various line diameters in the clutches and found that 3/16" will hold solidly but 3/32nds won't. I still have to check on 1/8" as I'd like to go with this in Vectran or Technora. Then I could just "tail" the last few feet to save the crew's hands

Derek

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 15:33:23

P.S. Does anyone know the exact measurement for the jib hoist? (i.e. snap shackle on bow fitting to halyard shackle at masthead.) I don't have a 50' tape and got 3 different lengths this morning...

Derek

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 21:58:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 P.S. Does anyone know the exact measurement for the jib hoist?
Derek

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Wouldn't it be the luff length minus the distance between the tack and the head when the jib is completely doused? Then, do you need to shackle the sheet to anything while changing sails or when the sail is off?

Edited by - on

frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 07:49:32

Derek

Why not get the sheaves we all did a few years back from Bellpat marine. I believe I used 5/16" external Halyards. It has worked fine for me.

Frank R
84 C25 sk

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