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Fall race season finaly over

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azexploder
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/14/2003 : 00:08:03

Ended up 6th out of 9. Not bad until you consider the bottom two made 4 out of 8 races. That PHRF of 216 is killing me!! I can start first or darn near every race - on the favored side and point with the rest of them, but they walk away with thier 150 strung out and me with my postage stamp 110.

VC17m for Christmas.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 01:26:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That PHRF of 216 is killing me<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Where did that number come from?

It should be more like 228 and with a furling headsail 237

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 09:19:53

Bryan is right... I don't think that number is good ...and is exactly why I argued for some clarity between the two 250 models.

The C250 water ballast with a 110 has an SD number of 19.32 compared to the wing keel at 16.29 with a 135. This places them in a very different realm on the course. The 16.29 is an identical number to the C25 tall rig using a 150 and as Bryan proved using his wing keel and 135, is quite compeditive to it. I think the 19.32 number is higher than the C25 standard rig, though I couldn't find its nummber easily.

While SD isn't everything...its a lot. Look at a serious racer, boat weight is kept to a minimum and crew weight is carefull chosen for the conditions.

Do PHRF numbers give any allowance when running less than a 150? If not, then you will be nothing but fresh meet to beat for the owners of the system. Have fun...

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 11:25:24

I suggest you ask the race committee where they got their handicap numbers for your boat. They might not know. So long as you haven't been consistently winning, so that nobody else has a chance, the race committee should use the most widely accepted, nationally established numbers for your boat. If they are using some nationally accepted handicap number for your boat (I suspect they are not), you'll probably have a hard time persuading them to change.

Regarding your 110 vs. the 150s of your opponents, your boat is probably at its best with a 130-135% jib. I sailed a C-250 once or twice with a 110% jib, and agree that it's hard to be competitive with the small jib, but you will be amazed at how much more competive a new bottom job and VC17 will make your boat. As I recall, we finished about sixth also in a fleet of about +/- 10 boats. In strong winds, when the others have to reduce their sail area, you will be much more competitive, but, even in lighter air, a fresh bottom job will let your boat accelerate more easily, reach a higher speed, maintain its highest speed, and coast farther with your smaller jib. Preparing your boat, and keeping it fast (by periodically scrubbing the bottom) will go a long ways toward overcoming any handicaps. Also, when your opponents are faster than you, you have to look for shorter, faster ways to get around the course, i.e., tacking on wind shifts, hunting stronger winds, and you have to impede your opponents whenever possible(e.g., by putting them in your windshadow). They will be doing all those things to some extent, but you have to do it better, and you have to be willing to take gambles that they will not take. If you are excessively handicapped, the only way you can win is if you are better prepared, concentrate more intensely, and if you increase the possiblity that you will have good luck. You won't win consistently that way, but your victories will be more satisfying.

If you can add a 130% jib to your sail inventory, you'll be much more competitive.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 11:25:44

As a complete novice but one who is fascinated by sailboat racing...and some would say there are no stupid questions...what is "PHRF"? Is that some kind of handicap system as in golf? Thanks in advance for your time and knowledge. Dan #727

Edited by - on

azexploder
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 22:41:46

The PHRF = Performance Handicap Rating Formula- vs One design (all same boat) and Portsmith rating for smaller boats. Like a golf handicap, it allows dissimilar boats to race against one another with each having a chance to win. I know it is a moving target, so I hope to move it up a bit.

There are so few C250's racing that there was no baseline out here to measure success agaings...until now. I will be asking to review the rating at the next meeting.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2003 : 23:46:10

Mike - as chairman of a PHRF Committee I can state without reservation that the C250 (all configs) are a bear to handicap because of the low numbers around the country that are racing.
I have no doubt that 216 is WAY too low - that makes you 6 secs a mile faster than "TSU" - which,(with all due respect)is ludicrous.
Checking all the areas that do rate the C250, 228 seems to be the most common number. In addition, you should get a 12 sec/mile addition for roller furling (if you have a UV cover), and an additional 12 secs/mile for a headsail less than 150%. Thus, on Canyon Lake, you would rate 252

Derek

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 00:01:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In addition, you should get a 12 sec/mile addition for roller furling (if you have a UV cover), and an additional 12 secs/mile for a headsail less than 150%. Thus, on Canyon Lake, you would rate 252 <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

252 Maybe I'll move to Texas

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 00:03:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bryan Beamer
 Maybe I'll move to Texas

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Did I say that out loud.

Edited by - Bryan Beamer on 12/15/2003 00:04:31

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 00:05:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dkn420
 As a complete novice but one who is fascinated by sailboat racing...and some would say there are no stupid questions...what is "PHRF"? Is that some kind of handicap system as in golf? Thanks in advance for your time and knowledge. Dan #727
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Check out this link to US Sailing's [url="http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/what_is_phrf2.htm"]FAQ's about PHRF[/url].

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 11:14:23

Bryan Beamer - y'all come on down!!!

Derek
P.S. I should have mentioned that we only adjust base PHRF's in the Cruiser Fleet..but everyone with roller furling knows to be in that fleet!

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 16:28:16

Mike,

What hull configuration do you have? At the officer stqff meeting we had a couple of weeks ago, we discsussed handicapping 250's and one of the major problems is water ballested boats, which don't have much performance history. Duane Wolff, Official NA Measurer is looking into developing an equitable handicap.

That said, the 110 is probably a major contributer to your performance. The other boats with 150's or 135's have significantly more sail area than you with a 110. Sail area is the motor of our toys, and within reason more sail area means more power. One thought is to spring for the boat units and get a 135. According to 250 design class rules the maximum headsail on a 250 is 135 and have the impression that you don't get a handicap benefit for sailing with a smaller headsail. You can sail with a 135, and if you choose to sail with a 110, that's your decision, and you get the same handicap. (I couldn't find that in the 250 design standards, so I could be wrong with that.)

Are all those boats you're racing against 25 or 250's. If so you've got a fleet there, and I'll have fleet develoment manual to you soon.

Derek says that you'd get 12 sec/mile for using a smaller headsail.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 21:50:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One thought is to spring for the boat units and get a 135. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A 135% headsail on a C250 water ballast hull #618 or before will not trim properly sailing a beat to windward unless the jib car tracs are mounted outside the chain plates for the shrouds. I have seen 1 water ballast like this and it was around hull #68.

Edited by - on

azexploder
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 23:09:08

I have a hank on 110%. I am racing against C27's, C&C 27, pair of O'Day 25's (rated 240) few macgregors, and a Corsair 27.
" one of thease things is not like the other..." No C250/C25's, although there are 20+ in the dry lot.

I don't see any way a 135% is going to sit in that slot unless the cars all the way back and I am sheeted in all the way in. I would be moving the cars every time I headed off wind or got a big header. There is sooo much room between the stays and the main that I would get very little slot effect if I move the tracks back on the deck and sheeted outside the stays in our light winds.

Upwind I could not point as well and off the wind (ahead of a run) I would not be able to sheet for best shape.

All this is a guess unless I got a hank-on 135 to try. Anyone with a 135% the are not using?

I would like to have the Fleet Development handbook to give me some ideas on forming a fleet. I know Max Day is down here and I had some guy with a WB attempt to offer advice on getting my boat on the trailer after a particularly frustrating and long race day. I was a little short with him. So I know they get wet sometimes. NOW is the best time to sail around here anyway.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2003 : 23:34:54

Don...

The c250 was designed as a center board water ballast boat with a differing sailplan than many traditional designs. Her mains'l is her main engine and the smaller headsail was designed to be trimmed closer on inboard tracks with the shrouds outboard on the rub rail.

This means that she is restricted to a sail with a foot that clears the shrouds, she was not designed to carry more than a 110.

Perhaps because of the difficulty in grasping this concept, inadequate concern has been meeted out to considerations for her to be competitively raced. No doubt many simply say to themselves, the owner needs to run more headsail...Its not that simple.

Any rule or handicap that comes close to being fair to the 250 centerboard will acknowledge her 110 headsail limitation and her greater displacement compared to the wing keel.

This design restriction has been changed with the 2004 production as the shrouds for the centerboard model have been moved inboard. I do not see it reasonable that a pre 2004 year can be retrofitted. The dilemma then is cast that the 95-04 models are at a serious disadvantage when being considered for racing. They are both heavier and restricted to less sail than the wing keel... Yet, a search of the internet numbers can find instances that their numbers are not as favorable as the wing keels.

I hope that Duane can find a way to sort this out.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2003 : 08:59:45

Has anyone tried using a combination of a 110 on a furler up wind and a chute off the wind? There are any number of "chute" designs that could let you reach without the sheeting issues of a bent headsail.

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2003 : 10:07:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Has anyone tried using a combination of a 110 on a furler up wind and a chute off the wind? There are any number of "chute" designs that could let you reach without the sheeting issues of a bent headsail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Some of us have drifters.(Arlyn,Oscar,myself & I'm sure there are others) That would work just fine in a PHRF race. But as per class rules they are not allowed.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2003 : 12:11:14

Frank, good question.

Yes, a drifter has become popular to the sail inventory on a 250 especially water ballast to overcome the inadequacy in light air of the 110, with some fewer choosing an asymmetrical or symmetrical chute.

The drifter functions fairly well on the 250 as it disregards the normal jib tracks and is cut high to sheet to stern stanchions so sheets outboard of the shrouds on the rub rail.

There was a time when I thought the drifter might provide some answer to racing the water ballast but I think I've concluded not.

Like hull # 68 in this years nationals which tried to use a 150 on added rub rail tracks, the drifter would trade upwind performance for downwind and might gain slightly better time overall. The point however is that you can't give up an area and keep an edge. To sheet outboard of the shrouds on the rub rail is to give up a lot of pointing. Even then, the drifter can't be hauled firm having to stay off the spreaders.

If winds increased during the race to more than 6-8, all benefits gained would be be more than lost in getting it down. I have noted carefully Steve Milby's comments on the loss of time associated with getting a sail changed and from my experience handing the drifter, I agree with him.

As far as using a chute to get her going off wind, that might be some strategy... but it must be remembered... that the water ballast drafts four more inches than the wing keel, and in the absence of apparent wind, that increased drag is a killer that can't be overcome. The only way she could begin to compete is to pump out ballast and be sailed as a dinghy. The risk of doing that are something that would take lots of guts, small amounts of brains or some ingenuity.

Fooling around, I've messed with a J24 running 150 and racing sails. We raced to weather up the lake one day, I took a head start of about 100 yards and we raced three miles. I was single hand and he had a crew of one. We both tacked several times. When reaching the windward shore, he had closed the distance to about half. So, I was somewhat competitive to weather with him, we then turned off wind to go back down the lake and he blew my scuppers out.

In my opinion, the water ballast should compete against herself in one design. Its been unfortunate that there haven't been enough of them to do that and I don't know that that will ever change although it could. It is the easiest boat by far in our association to trailer but its also a niche boat for those who have a need to trailer but may more often have other goals to do so rather than racing.

However, fun is fun where ever it can be found and it very well might be that a fair amount of water ballast will appear someday to race. Its not going to happen by giving them an initial disadvantage with no way to overcome it such as racing heads up against wing keel boats with a vastly differing SD ratio.

I'm reminded of Mark Melchoir a few years ago...who contemplated trailering from Texas to Holland. But when realizing that he would have to compete against 135 headsails... said..."Forget it".

I don't know how many water ballast boats there are... the first 230 were all produced as water ballast as the boat was originally designed. Wings became the greater seller after they were released by a fair margin. Currently, there may be about a similar amount of each... and it likely that ratio will if it hasn't all ready, begin to favor the wing. Current production of course opens the door to more headsail but the draft differences still play a part.

I don't have many answers... I can only say what my opinion is and mine is skewered by local experiences. Those are, that I had a great time for six years sailing one design Hobie !8's and that fell apart when the economy went bad and 3/4 of our fleet left the area looking for work in Austin and Dallas. We had raced a great many times however in conjunction with the local yacht club, they joining our races schedules and we joining theirs. A few observations about that. 1. A handicap method created a great amount of bickering, squabbling, and excuses. 2. They were given to protest at a drop of the hat. 3. Speaking of the hat, they were wont to always pass the hat so that non consumers of the spirits would support the habits of those who did.

The Commodore of our Hobie Fleet bought a C22 following the disbanding of the Hobie Fleet and tried racing with the yacht club. We talked a few years later... and his comments were, "What a sad experience that was, I ended up moving my boat to Shreveport and have been racing one design C22s and have been having a blast, if your looking for a good time, join us.

I found it infinitely more enjoyable to compete against a similar boat. Remembering one outing to a lake to our west, the Yacht club had invited a fleet of Nacra's to come from Dallas to race. Their Commodore spent two hours trying to persuade our Hobie Fleet to race heads up with them. He was relentless, but we declined agreeing finally to share a start to get him to shut up. Those things were built out of tissue fiberglass. The glass was so fragile that all of them had a great many repairs all over them which were so prevalent that no attempt to gel coat the repairs was ever made. They weighed less than half of what a Hobie did and they went down wind like scared rabbits all of them finishing well ahead of any of the Hobie. My point is that there is always some heady guy who has a need to find fresh meat to impress. Well the guy certainly impressed me that day, not by the speed of his boat but by the jerk he was. We knew the differences in the boats, he for sure knew, but hoped we didn't. Thats not sportsmanship...

Thinking back, maybe our Hobie Fleet was unique... our first racing rules was, no protest flags. Sure, there were many incidents... which were discussed (mostly laughed about) with jovial threats to settle the score. I guess we just didn't take it seriously enough.... but we had a great deal of fun.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 12/16/2003 13:35:59

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2003 : 13:27:58

Arlyn,

I certainly to defer to your knowledge about the 250, and also agree that it would be best if the wb boat (s) could compete as one design. But we need the boats to do that. It could happen tho'

thanks for your thoughts and explaination of history.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2003 : 13:29:51

That brings the discussion back to the handicap, and 216 certainly seems inadequate, and to race fairly needs to be increased.

Mike, ehrn you have a chance and talk to your reace committee, let us know the outcome.

Edited by - on

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